Vorlons and jamming Shadow vessels

[RW7427]

I know I said in a thread here someplace that I don't really watch B5 to anylize it, but after watching an ep tonight, I have some questions. I thought I'd post them here to see what everyone else thinks.

In Walkabout, Sheridan has a meeting with the War Council about using telepathic signals to block a Shadow vessel. He proposes that they go and try it, and asks Lyta to come along. Now in the meeting, you see Kosh 2, or Ulkesh, as I think it is. My question then is this: I'm sure that the Vorlons know a teep can block a Shadow vessel. That is probably why they created them. But what I want to know is, what do they think about Sheridan and company discovering that fact? Did they plan to use the teeps one day themselves in future battles with the Shadows, or did they hope that one of the younger races, such as the humans, would one day discover this fact? If they did, then how would they react to Sheridan using against the Shadows? It isn't shown what they think, but I wonder what that might be. Were they happy that Sheridan came across this fact, or did they decide to just watch him and see what he would do?

If anyone has any thoughts on this matter, I'd like to hear them.

 

[RW7427]

I know I said in a thread here someplace that I don't really watch B5 to anylize it, but after watching an ep tonight, I have some questions. I thought I'd post them here to see what everyone else thinks.

In Walkabout, Sheridan has a meeting with the War Council about using telepathic signals to block a Shadow vessel. He proposes that they go and try it, and asks Lyta to come along. Now in the meeting, you see Kosh 2, or Ulkesh, as I think it is. My question then is this: I'm sure that the Vorlons know a teep can block a Shadow vessel. That is probably why they created them. But what I want to know is, what do they think about Sheridan and company discovering that fact? Did they plan to use the teeps one day themselves in future battles with the Shadows, or did they hope that one of the younger races, such as the humans, would one day discover this fact? If they did, then how would they react to Sheridan using against the Shadows? It isn't shown what they think, but I wonder what that might be. Were they happy that Sheridan came across this fact, or did they decide to just watch him and see what he would do?

If anyone has any thoughts on this matter, I'd like to hear them.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

I believe that telepaths were deliberately designed to jam Shadow Ships.

If "Walkabout" is shown before "War Without End" then not only was this a design aim but the Vorlons know that their weapon works.

It was the development of telepathic genes that sent the million year old Vorlon-Shadow Wars into endgame. Babylon 4, 5, the Great Machine, Valen and Sheridan were just the icing on the cake.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

I believe that telepaths were deliberately designed to jam Shadow Ships.

If "Walkabout" is shown before "War Without End" then not only was this a design aim but the Vorlons know that their weapon works.

It was the development of telepathic genes that sent the million year old Vorlon-Shadow Wars into endgame. Babylon 4, 5, the Great Machine, Valen and Sheridan were just the icing on the cake.

 

[Strifeguard]

I believe "Walkabout" also includes the line about how no Vorlon had died in "a very long time".

I think that the Vorlons probablyhad methods that could jam shadow vessels on their own, but at a certain point, putting Vorlons on the front lines no longer became acceptable. Telepaths were bread in order to allow other races to stand against the Shadows, protecting Vorlon lives/goals. That's more-or-less what the rest of the war is about. The Vorlon and Shadow fleets conduct operations against each others forces more-or-less indirectly.

After all, why should the Shadows expend their own ships when the Centauri are just as willing? And why should the Vorlons expend their forces when the Alliance is willing to?

What I'm always far more curious about is the war that happened 1000 years before the events on Babylon 5. We know that other first ones were still around, and we know that telepaths wouldn't show up for another 800 years or so ( I can't remember exactly when, but supposedly the major worlds all developed telepaths simultaneously because of the Vorlons)

Plus, we recieved hints that the Shadows are "older" than the other "first ones" kind of like the Minbari of their group of races. Also, in War Without End, we're told that the Shadows come VERY close to winning the war 1000 years prior (i.e. they would have stalemated at the very least if B4 hadn't gone back in time)

Anyway, the sense I always got was that the war 1000 years prior to B5 was such a toll on the Vorlons (who probably bore the brunt of the war, since the Minbari were still young, and the other races wanted out of the galaxy) that they set their sites specifically on how to win the next war without losing more Vorlons than they had too.

Thus, they bread telepaths, they built the Planet destroyer (also interesting because beforehand they merely "drove off" the shadows, which would suggest some kind of ground-combat function on the part of the Vorlons), and they continued to manipulate the younger races into trusting them without question.

 

[Strifeguard]

I believe "Walkabout" also includes the line about how no Vorlon had died in "a very long time".

I think that the Vorlons probablyhad methods that could jam shadow vessels on their own, but at a certain point, putting Vorlons on the front lines no longer became acceptable. Telepaths were bread in order to allow other races to stand against the Shadows, protecting Vorlon lives/goals. That's more-or-less what the rest of the war is about. The Vorlon and Shadow fleets conduct operations against each others forces more-or-less indirectly.

After all, why should the Shadows expend their own ships when the Centauri are just as willing? And why should the Vorlons expend their forces when the Alliance is willing to?

What I'm always far more curious about is the war that happened 1000 years before the events on Babylon 5. We know that other first ones were still around, and we know that telepaths wouldn't show up for another 800 years or so ( I can't remember exactly when, but supposedly the major worlds all developed telepaths simultaneously because of the Vorlons)

Plus, we recieved hints that the Shadows are "older" than the other "first ones" kind of like the Minbari of their group of races. Also, in War Without End, we're told that the Shadows come VERY close to winning the war 1000 years prior (i.e. they would have stalemated at the very least if B4 hadn't gone back in time)

Anyway, the sense I always got was that the war 1000 years prior to B5 was such a toll on the Vorlons (who probably bore the brunt of the war, since the Minbari were still young, and the other races wanted out of the galaxy) that they set their sites specifically on how to win the next war without losing more Vorlons than they had too.

Thus, they bread telepaths, they built the Planet destroyer (also interesting because beforehand they merely "drove off" the shadows, which would suggest some kind of ground-combat function on the part of the Vorlons), and they continued to manipulate the younger races into trusting them without question.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

I believe "Walkabout" also includes the line about how no Vorlon had died in "a very long time".

The line may or may not be in "Walkabout", but it is certainly said somewhere. But this isn't because the Vorlons protected themselves with telepaths. It is because the "rules of engagement" prohibited direct battles between the Vorlons and the Shadows. Also because the Vorlons, unlike the Shadows, do not seem to have personally engaged in combat against the younger races. Given that these facts, plus the fact that the Vorlons are physically tougher than the Shadows, and you end up with very few Vorlon deaths. (It takes several Shadows to kill Kosh I, a dozen or more armed EarthForce types, plus Sheridan, what's left of Kosh I and Lorien to kill Kosh II. A couple of Centauri can blow a pair of Shadows away with standard military issue weapons.)

Regards,

Joe

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

I believe "Walkabout" also includes the line about how no Vorlon had died in "a very long time".

The line may or may not be in "Walkabout", but it is certainly said somewhere. But this isn't because the Vorlons protected themselves with telepaths. It is because the "rules of engagement" prohibited direct battles between the Vorlons and the Shadows. Also because the Vorlons, unlike the Shadows, do not seem to have personally engaged in combat against the younger races. Given that these facts, plus the fact that the Vorlons are physically tougher than the Shadows, and you end up with very few Vorlon deaths. (It takes several Shadows to kill Kosh I, a dozen or more armed EarthForce types, plus Sheridan, what's left of Kosh I and Lorien to kill Kosh II. A couple of Centauri can blow a pair of Shadows away with standard military issue weapons.)

Regards,

Joe

 

[KoshFan]

My question is this: since the telepaths weren't used by the Minbari in the last war, how precisely did the Minbari and their allies take down the Shadows back then?

 

[KoshFan]

My question is this: since the telepaths weren't used by the Minbari in the last war, how precisely did the Minbari and their allies take down the Shadows back then?

 

[blibrandi]

Its possible that in the last war the Vorlon's themselves manned their ships. Vorlon's I think are known to be telepathic and therefore used their powers to stop Shadow Vessels. And because of B4 showing up with Valen in it they had a new base of operations and a new leader to lead them to victory against the Shadows.

Never really analyzed it myself but thats how I think of it.

 

[blibrandi]

Its possible that in the last war the Vorlon's themselves manned their ships. Vorlon's I think are known to be telepathic and therefore used their powers to stop Shadow Vessels. And because of B4 showing up with Valen in it they had a new base of operations and a new leader to lead them to victory against the Shadows.

Never really analyzed it myself but thats how I think of it.

 

[vacantlook]

I've pretty much always thought that Vorlons were highly telepathic. Being so would enable them to know enough about mental abilities to appropriately manipulate the DNA of the younger races to bring out mental abilities. With Kosh showing up in Sheridan's dreams, in G'Kar's mind while he's under the influence of dust, and his becoming vastly exhausted after having appeared as a culturally specific being of light to the gathered races at the end of season two, I think there's enough evidence to say that Vorlons are at least somewhat telepathic.

 

[vacantlook]

I've pretty much always thought that Vorlons were highly telepathic. Being so would enable them to know enough about mental abilities to appropriately manipulate the DNA of the younger races to bring out mental abilities. With Kosh showing up in Sheridan's dreams, in G'Kar's mind while he's under the influence of dust, and his becoming vastly exhausted after having appeared as a culturally specific being of light to the gathered races at the end of season two, I think there's enough evidence to say that Vorlons are at least somewhat telepathic.

 

[ElScorcho]

I'd say that having the ability to break off a piece of consciousness and put it in someone else's mind for a little while would suggest that they're telepaths.

 

[ElScorcho]

I'd say that having the ability to break off a piece of consciousness and put it in someone else's mind for a little while would suggest that they're telepaths.

 

[Strifeguard]

I'd say that having the ability to break off a piece of consciousness and put it in someone else's mind for a little while would suggest that they're telepaths.

Not only that, but Kosh is repeatedly inside Sheridan's mind, even when there's no "line of sight" to Sheridan.

BTW I was always curious as to how/when Kosh put part of his conciousness into Sheridan. On the one hand, the encounter between them in the hallway seems obvious, but on the otherhand, we learn that a Vorlon must open its encouter suit to relinquish a piece of conciousness in a later episode. (Kosh II opens suit and "interfaces" with Lyta. I'm assuming this was the removing/giving a piece of consciousness, otherwise why would such an interface be necessary, why not simply read Lyta's mind?)

 

[Strifeguard]

I'd say that having the ability to break off a piece of consciousness and put it in someone else's mind for a little while would suggest that they're telepaths.

Not only that, but Kosh is repeatedly inside Sheridan's mind, even when there's no "line of sight" to Sheridan.

BTW I was always curious as to how/when Kosh put part of his conciousness into Sheridan. On the one hand, the encounter between them in the hallway seems obvious, but on the otherhand, we learn that a Vorlon must open its encouter suit to relinquish a piece of conciousness in a later episode. (Kosh II opens suit and "interfaces" with Lyta. I'm assuming this was the removing/giving a piece of consciousness, otherwise why would such an interface be necessary, why not simply read Lyta's mind?)

 

[A_M_Swallow]

My question is this: since the telepaths weren't used by the Minbari in the last war, how precisely did the Minbari and their allies take down the Shadows back then?

Good question. It was not just a points victory, lots of Shadow ships had to be destroyed to prevent their use in the final Shadow War.

Delenn said something about the Shadows making a mistake and moving before they were fully ready last time. Also some if not all of the First Ones were telepathic.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

My question is this: since the telepaths weren't used by the Minbari in the last war, how precisely did the Minbari and their allies take down the Shadows back then?

Good question. It was not just a points victory, lots of Shadow ships had to be destroyed to prevent their use in the final Shadow War.

Delenn said something about the Shadows making a mistake and moving before they were fully ready last time. Also some if not all of the First Ones were telepathic.