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Which ship would win? A Borg cube or a Shadow vessel?

The only visually definitive (by that I don’t mean things like who has the most powerful lights flying across the screen) advantage I can see Trek over B5 (now that I’m actually thinking about it – and believe me I don’t believe I actually am) is the transporters.

But then again the transports can be pretty sensative about what they can pass through (do Vorlons/shadows output some bio field). Then again shadows can phase in and out of hyperspace which is one hell of a cloak. B5 has an army of telepaths on most planets that could really ruin a trek crews day. Can trek ships engage in battle at Warp speed, I dunno, if not then they are at a big disadvantage because of BIG jump points could be used as non localised weapons. If they can then they do have an advantage with hit and run tactics.

My heads starting to hurt now.
 
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But we are also talking about the fact that the b5 weapons are less powerful then federation, the b5 weapons are lasers nukes and pulse weapons which could barely scratch federation shields, also none of the major powers with maybe the exception of the Vorlons had any Kind of shielding, The whitestars did but i doubt that they could stand up to phasers which have vastly more power, Also Fusion reactors would tend to be far less powerful( I am assuming that the other powers like the Mimbari and Volons might have better power sources) then Matter anti matter reactors of the federation. Then there is the whole issue of no civilization in the b5 universe has ftl/warp capability in normal space which the federation has would be a huge advantage alone in battle. As for the telepath issue. the federation has among is members telepathic species like the Vulcans and the Betazoids.
You also forget the fact that the shadows have to come out of cloak to fire their weapons
 
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I grant you that the “idea” of fusion based weapons against matter/antimatter weapons give the guys with the antimatter the advantage. But it’s unknown what tech most of the non-human species have in B5. I doubt the first ones are still using fusion.

True the Betazoids could tell their captains that their sensing some aggression from the Shadows and the Vorlon ships seem a bit pissed off but that’s about as useful as an empath is going to be. And by the time the Vulcans have done with their my mind to your mind bit the Sigma Walkers will have probably buggered off to pick a fight with the Klingons out of boredom.

Question is, who would win between Jason Ironheart and Kes.
 
All a B5 universe vessel would have to do to prevent being captured by the Borg, is to enter hyperspace, where the Borg couldn't follow. Now, if they could get the Borg to follow them into hyperspace, the Borg couldn't navigate. They would be lost, and effectively neutralized.
 
Triple Kess might not prevail given that she has a physical body that could be attacked, but remember she did hurl voyager 9 o 10,000 light years across the Delta Quadrant thats one battle that I would view at a safe distance, say two or three galaxies away.

Jade , It 's a given that sooner or later the Borg would capture an earth or alien ship, acquire information, on jump space tech, and Navigation , build their own analogues to jump space engines which would be bad for the b5 ships. Whether subspace communication would exist in Hyperspace ,is another matter, and opens up a whole host of other issues. The Borg might find a way here, they are very methodical and relentless in that regard. Also the nature of Hyperspace alone would draw their scrutiny . I think that the B5 ships hiding in or stayin in Hyperspace might delay but not prevent defeat. In the are of telepaths Trek never to my knowledge spelled out the full extent of Betazed telepathic abilities, but being telepaths far longer then the ones on earth in B5 they might posse a challenge to the Shadows.
 
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Tripple f and Jade I know that the Vorlons and the Shadows and the first ones have incredible technology, but they would be up against an enemy that can adapt at rate that insane by anyones standards. The Shadows and Vorlons don't seem to react well to sudden shifts by any potential enemy, not so the Borg, they are collectiive and thy can asses a situation and respond far faster and more effectively then either of the two big heavy weights in the B5 universe.
 
There is one other thing to consider with regard to the Borg, once they have gotten a foothold in the b5 universe, that means assimilating a few planets then there would be be no way for any of the Powers in the B5 universe to dislodge them and once they start taking over worlds then resources base will grow exponentially eventually outstripping the other world , they would then be able keep producing borg cubes and weapons and drones, they also create them as well as assimilate. He is something else to consider, when they attack Za ha dum they won't do it with one cube but with dozens maybe hundreds., the shadows could not even begin to cope with a mass attack from Borg, they would drive though the Za ha dum system like a plague of locusts either assimilating the planet or stripping it bear of technology, and iidoubt the Drak would fare any better.:cool:
 
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All a B5 universe vessel would have to do to prevent being captured by the Borg, is to enter hyperspace, where the Borg couldn't follow. Now, if they could get the Borg to follow them into hyperspace, the Borg couldn't navigate. They would be lost, and effectively neutralized.

I still think you could nuke a borg cube merely by opening a jump point either inside it or within close proximity.
 
The problem is that you cannot pinpoint a ship traveling at FTL/Warp Speed from Jump Space they can't even manuever jump space without beacons and besides a Borg ship has shields which can deal with something as primitive as a Nuclear weapons,
 
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The problem is that you cannot pinpoint a ship traveling at FTL/Warp Speed from Jump Space they can't even manuever jump space without beacons and besides a Borg ship has shields which can deal with something as primitive as a Nuclear weapons,


1) The Borg would need to drop out of warp/transwarp to engage and that's when you'd hit them.

2) Has it ever seriously been suggested that a Borg vessel's shielding could handle a nuclear blast? I have trouble buying that. I think it's extremely bad writing to have an invulnerable "bogeyman". I mean you could take the Borg to stupid levels with the whole adaptation thing:

"Oh no it's the Borg... quick let's lure them into our cunningly laid trapin this abandoned star system. Ok we've found a way to rig the sun to go nova that'll kill the borg cube."

... and three systems later the borg adapt? I don't think so.

For one thing, the borg don't attack until they perceive something as a threat. Placing a tactical nuke on board would be safe until the borg detected that you had activated it as a weapon... if you don't set a timer and sacrifice a ranger.... goodbye overambitious oxo cube.Nuke's may be old by 24th century standards but they are still devastatingly powerul.

A jumppoint tactically opened would either be explosive or seriously reduce and disrupt the mass of the ship. Of course only something of Minbari/Alliance level up would probably be able to be this precise with their engines.
 
You also have to figure that the Borg have been around long enough to deal with anything as primitive as a Nuclear weapon. You have to figure that they have scanners that can analyze what an object is think a tactical nuke would perceived as a threat and neutralized accordingly. Consider the possibility that the Borg have probably dealt with nuclear weapons before. Trying to predict when they are going to drop out of warp is a problem as well. again in normal space no Mimbari ship,shadow ship EAS ship would be able to keep up with them in normal space so already you have a tactical disadvantage. Your dealing with two entirely different concepts of technology and trying guess who will win who won't is problematic at best. No the Borg are not invulnerable but against the B5 civilizations they would a nightmare worse then the shadows and maybe even the Vorlons
 
Galahad you know what i would truly like to see, i know it will never happen and there to many reasons why it could not happen. But i would love to see a crossover story in which the Borg show up in the Babylon 5 universe I would make it a CGI film complete with voice actors an everything. It would be an alt B5 story, in which the Borg would show up on in the B5 universe right in the middle of the shadow war. The Borg are a threat not only to the the Earth Mimbari and everyone else, but to shadows and their allies as well. It would force enemies to ban together in a way that has never happened before. It would be fun to test out a scenario that way wouldn't it?:cool:
 
With regard to Shadows, they don't seem particularly keen on defense.

They don't appear to rely on heavy armour or impressive fields. Concentrated fire from the weapons of the younger species can destroy their ships. When harmed in batttle beyond recovery, Shadow vessels self-destruct instead of floating around as wreckage.

Their home planet exhibited similar behaviour. It wasn't guarded by an impressive fleet, only the Eye - which could be expected to fail against better protected minds, like those of Vorlons or other First Ones. The reaction of Z'ha'dum (if it was their home at all, not merely a meetingplace) to an imminent threat of getting compromised, was to explode.

Shadow strategic weapons don't rely on armor either. Any component of their planetkiller alone, was easy to destroy. The entire structure however, was a loose, very spacious and allegedly self-organizing cluster of weapons and particulate matter, into which sensors could not see, and into which an opponent might fire a silly amount of weapons (including high-power bombs) without covering more than a fraction of the structure's volume with effective enough destructive power.

What they do rely on, is stealth, namely ability to appear next to their target, and deliver a strike under most common defenses. When destroying a Narn base by surprise, Shadow vessels appeared into normal space practically next to Narn ships, with their weapons already trained on targets. The only further action which was required of them, was to fire.

Their strategic weapons also rely on ability to pass through most obstacles. When a Shadow planetkiller fired its missiles at a planet, they appeared to have little difficulty passing through the planet's crust, and exploding inside. This would suggest that shields would be of very little use, against a weapon which a Shadow built to reach well-protected targets.

A serious consideration to keep in mind when fighting Shadows, would be their ability to build artificial life, including species of nanomachines, including such which compute in decentralized manner, and direct their own evolution to better fulfill their goal (whether it be destruction or doing something else).

However, Shadows were not seen using such tools / weapons personally. Only after their departure did their assistants and proxies, the Drakh, attempt to use such an agent against Earth. It was however a near-failure, most likely due to serious inability on part of the Drakh to instruct the nanomachines on what they should accomplish.

Whether a Shadow desiring to do this, could build a disease to infect the Borg, and if yes, whether it would be the equivalent of a deadly plague or the common cold, naturally remains uncertain. It would likely be capable of infecting both biological creatures and machines.

It might also be capable of infecting planets and building infrastructure to turn a planet into a fleet, but Shadows were never seen doing that (or building ships on planets). Instead they seemed to prefer smaller objects, traveling without a star, optionally in hyperspace. I suspect they would be more than capable of starting to consume planets, but considered planets too vulnerable and didn't prefer that.

As for Shadows personally, there is doubt on whether they can really de-materialize or not, and whether by turning invisible, they end up in hyperspace or elsewhere. However, basing on the depiction of a pair of fighting Vorlons passing through station walls without leaving a hole, it can be suspected that a Shadow might easily walk through matter as well. Potentially with casual ease.

As such, their ability to cleverly extract information from, implant information into, and thus sabotage or re-purpose a crucial system or person, ought be considered. Few creatures may have reason to be really certain in the integrity of themselves and their systems, while facing an opponent who is that difficult to notice, and wields that capable tools.

Yes, fellow First Ones likely aren't vulnerable to their tricks, their own complexity and physical properties resembling those of Shadows. But a less prepared creature ought likely be careful with them - they seem to rarely give any information without wishing to, but might easily take or modify information not intended for them.
 
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Those are good points no question, based on that the Shadows could win, being able to phase in and out of Hyperspcae is good and well but the Borg vessel can travel FTL/Warp regular space , I think shadows would have to be ableplot and target them from Hyperspace given that they have to transit to sublight in normal space, that might still be a possible issue still in the Borgs favor Even the Shadows ship do destructs the Borg conceivably capture enough wreckage to analyze and maybe devise a means of defeating the shadows but that may not be assured though the Borg can adapt and they've been doing it for centuries.Then consider what happens if a Shadow being should get assimilated by the Borg, that can happen, the Borg might then gain an understanding of shadow tech and how they think, then there is the Borg Nano probes themselves to consider against the shadow organic tech I agree this could pose a serious problem for the Borg, remembering the trouble that they had with lifeform 8472 As for the Shadow planet killer, The Borg cubes might find a way disabling it t with a few well place nano probe weapons .This is a likelyhood given that the The Excalabur which had Vorlon Mimbari and Human tech were able to take down the Shadow planet killer in a Call to Arms, the Borg might be a match for them here. Being able to phase in and out is good but they got to phase themselves fully into either attack or use weapons which is a possible vulnerability issue and whose to say the Borg would not come up with a means of defense against that kind of attack, again there is the issue of the Borg collective mind,your not fighting single cube's but the entire collective and its trillions of link minds, thats a lot brain power arrayed against you.The battle with the Shadows could be a very lethal situation to the Borg for all the reasons that you have outlined. All I know is that one battle I would not want to be involved in.
 
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I know these cross over universe thingies about who would win in a fight are all very hypothetical with it being about fictitious technologies appearing in different writer created universes. But I thought there was rules to the things.

Like you can only base your arguments on what is seen on screen.

The stuff your coming out with has no bearing on what is seen of the Borg in the Star Trek universe. Your talking about how the Borg would take on the organic tech of the First Ones and would easily adapt to them.

But the Borg have only come across one (on screen) race using organic ships etc. and didn’t adapt in the slightest. They were being systematically wiped out, dozens of ships and entire planets at a time. Their weapons were useless, their shields were useless and they couldn’t assimilate anything, wreckage of organic ships included.

So what leads you to believe it would be any different against the Shadows. Or am I interpretating the rules of these things incorrectly.
 
You are correct on that point,without Voyager's help they would have lost and I cannot dispute this one. This could apply to Shadow tech as well. But there is one thing to remember it was 8472' Biology was inimical to to Borg tech and human flesh as was nearly the case with Harry Kim. We have no proof that the Borg nano tech would have been ineffective on the Shadow Biology or their organic tech or that their biology was similarly as virulent as 8472. However this bit of speculation does not make correct on this either.
Touche Tripple. F.
 
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:) not in the slightest.

It’s just I was scanning over the thread and noticed a lot speculation that seemed to be going beyond the usual cross over things I’ve looked at, and I vaguely remember someone in one saying that you had to limit things to what was seen in either ‘verse. (there has to precedence or something)

You notice I’m not getting involved in the actual debate (as such) as I like the shows but don’t dabble in such things. Though can genuinely see the fun in doing so. The idea you had of doing a predator v alien thing between some ships in Trek and B5 would be extremely cool to see – but I can imagine it would cause a few fans heads on either ‘side’ to explode. Though that might be almost as cool to watch as well.
 
Triple F it was fun seeing how much mileage I could get out of this one, I looked at some of early posts this was stated in 2001. To say that this thread is old would be an understatement. I agree such crossover confrontation would be a blast but we know that outside of maybe fan written fiction, its never happening.Besides can you imagine trying to reconcile the two different technology concepts into a film of any kind? that would be a challenge to say the least.
 
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This is a likelyhood given that the The Excalabur which had Vorlon Mimbari and Human tech were able to take down the Shadow planet killer in a Call to Arms
Indeed, Excalibur and Victory destroyed a Drakh-made version of the Shadow planetkiller - more specifically its command center, while the rest of the planetkiller self-destructed. (The assembly by the Drakh of another similar weapon was thwarted by technomage sabotage, in an off-screen side story mentioned in one of the book trilogies, if I recall it correctly.)

However, what I've noticed is a key difference between the Drakh planetkiller, and the Shadow planetkiller which had the combined fleet of the younger species nearly disabled in the battle in the Coriana system.

The Drakh-operated planetkiller which attacked Earth, exhibited a rigid structure inside it, from which an expert thief was able to locate a command center.

Meanwhile, the Shadow-operated planetkiller exhibited no internal structure. Its only components appeared to be dust (what kind of dust, remained unspecified) and great quantities of anti-planetary warheads.

I also recall something about most ships' engines starting to fail inside the Shadow version of the weapon, which was having a very strong cooling effect on anything inside it. [1] One might speculate that trying to attain a temperature near absolute zero (most likely the temperature of cosmic background radiation) was some defense against sensors prying into the cloud, or probes too small to warrant destruction remaining operational inside it (although the dust of the planetkiller, if it contained active components, might also have a strong exchange of opinions with any hostile spy dust coming to "nose around" among it). This is another effect which the Drakh version did not appear to exhibit.

My personal guess is that the two weapons were quite different, despite looking similar on the outside. I suspect the Drakh cut many corners, to get something similar built.

[1] Where the Shadow version put the heat it absorbed is an amusing question, since it couldn't just disappear without a violation of thermodynamics happening. I do realize this ain't hard science fiction, and nothing is supposed to match actual physical constraints, but one can always suggest they dumped the heat into hyperspace, or stored it in the warheads.
 
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Puzzle everything you say is quite reasonable, given the tech concepts of both shows and well with the established concepts of both shows. Unfortunately as has has been pointed out to me ,my arguments in favor of the Borg tend to go outside what has been established in trek. Still a fight between the Borg and the Shadows would be fun to watch.
 
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