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24: Season 4 (SPOILERS)
- Thread starter Sinclair
- Start date
PillowRock
Regular
Except that that isn't consistent with a character who had built up a company bearing his name into that large of a business (and remained at the head of it as CEO through it all), either.
Recoil
Regular
I love how Edgar pointed out how absurd it is that Driscoll's daughter slit her wrists when she was being watched.
Finally watched this episode today, and I thought the same thing, that was pretty funny.
Regarding the EMP, OK, its far fetched, but its also not far fetched. If you are a high-end government contractor designing weapons, then developing something like that isn't that crazy, hell they have been in Sci-Fi plots for years. AND if you are a weapons contractor like that, and you have so many secrets, putting one of your own devices in the basement of your building to prevent your data and information being taken over by terrorists or another country as a fail-safe seems like a logical idea to me. Believe it or not, it didn't surprise me that a company like that would have such a failsafe --- they just ended up using it to cover up for their own shit instead of letting it fall into enemy hands.
I also just knew Michelle would be the one sent in. It was just too easy to find a way to the drama of getting them back together (not together as a couple, but in a working sense).
So far my biggest complaint of this season was the "Override Device." Everything surrounding it has been pretty lame and severly made-up. I hope the "end game" that the terrorists have in mind is far better and more believable.
I also am finding myself liking Paul a bit more now that hes helping Jack.
As for the CEO and his decision, thats probably TEXTBOOK of many CEOs in this country. All the scandals and other things that have come out in recent years (Enron, Worldcom, you name it) I guarentee you that conversations like that one had taken place in EACH AND EVERY one of them. "Its better to cover it up and not get caught" and they, of course, get caught anyway.
So that scene was very believable to me.This episode was OK, but just basically filler stuff.
PillowRock
Regular
As for the CEO and his decision, thats probably TEXTBOOK of many CEOs in this country. All the scandals and other things that have come out in recent years (Enron, Worldcom, you name it) I guarentee you that conversations like that one had taken place in EACH AND EVERY one of them. "Its better to cover it up and not get caught" and they, of course, get caught anyway.
Cover up WHAT? Get caught doing WHAT?
That's the big problem with that. There is nothing for them to cover up (if you believe the other two execs aren't flat out lying to the CEO; if they are actually involved in the override incident then *that* is their motive, and we go back to the CEO is an unbelievable moron).
Let's think about this for a minute.
Who is most capable of conducting background checks; including talking to relatives, friends, neighbors (and ex-neighbors, etc) potentially scattered over a very wide geographic area, and checking all relavant databases for any criminal record, etc.? I'll give you a hint: it isn't the contractor. Who has at least the potential of having other priorities that might conflict with security concerns (say, maybe, a profit motive)? Given those two things, who do you think the government requires to do the background checks on anyone getting near a project such as this "override device"? And since they are the paying customer, they *do* get to make those decisions.
So what exactly is the contractor supposed to have done wrong that they are trying to cover up? What consequences are they trying to avoid? And how will destroying Marwan's files halp them avoid those consequences?
I don't see any rational answers to any of those questions.
That the concept of "Would we be better off destroying things / stonewalling?" would be brought up and briefly examined would not surprise me in the least. That they would decide that they should follow that course in a case like the one in 24 is absurd (unless the people doing it are part of Marwan's plot).
PillowRock
Regular
No.
Like I said, the company is NOT the one that does the background checks and clears people to work sensitve government projects. The government performs those investigations and grants those clearances. Contractors rely on the government for that, and that is the way that the government insists that things are done.
The incompetence that would be revealed would be the government invetigators', NOT the company's.
Besides which, they aren't even being portrayed as trying to hide the basic facts that you just listed. That is already an established set of facts in the 24 universe.
All they are hiding are the details of Marwan's movements and activities. Not even being able to tell the government where they have sent one of their employees on company business *would* display the kind of gross incompetence that you are talking about. They are creating the exact problem that you say they are trying to prevent.
A_M_Swallow
Regular
US Security Clearances are granted by government agencies. Defence contractors basically mail the forms to the correct people at the agancy.
Here is a report on US vetting.
http://www.dss.mil/seclib/govsec/chap4.htm
Jonny_Fever
Regular
I can see why they didnt want the information to get out because the CEO briefly said that he was worried CTU would discover that they were selling weapons to terrorists. He admitted that they had been involved in illegal activities. I just think that if they did the EMP pulse, they should have done that first instead of trying to stop them and pulling a gun on Paul. At least that way if they had done the pulse as soon as Jack showed up, perhaps it would have deflected suspicion from the company and back on Marwan. The CEO and his 2 people just seemed a little over the top.
PillowRock
Regular
That wasn't ow i interpreted that exchange. It came sounding to me like they were saying: "What if it turns out that he was doing such-and-such, and our company reputation gets trashed because of it?" (much like GKE's most recently proposed scenario), as opposed to "What if CTU learns that *we* have been doing this?"
Granted, I only watched it once, but that was impression of the exchange as I was watching it.
Jonny_Fever
Regular
I still had the episode taped from Monday night so I watched it again as well. I'm still going with my first thought. While they are trying to stop Paul from finding incriminating files, the CEO says that he (paul) will find evidence that they sold arms to terrorists. But of course I could just be interpreting it incorrectly and perhaps the CEO is worried that they will find what looks like evidence that they sold to terrorists. Other than that, I think part of the main reason they used the EMP was because it was indicated that the company did not use the standard National Security Procedures during screening. Who knows how many other terrorists are employed there as a result. If that was true, the Gov. would shut them down and the company would more than likely fold under.
B5_Obsessed
Regular
I quote Ron Burgundy, after the deadly anchorman street brawl. "That really escalated. FAST!"
These guys go from deleting a few files, to EMPing their building (and several surrounding city blocks), to attempted murder in a mere 20 minutes. As you may have seen in the coming attractions for this week.........
SPOILER
They are bringing in a full attack team to kill Jack and Paul.
These guys need a vacation. Is there anyone in the world who would believe that they could get away with such a reckless and hastily devised cover-up? It's just stupid.
But I'll watch dammit, because I wanna see Jack kill someone.
In my opinion, Paul missed the opportunity last week to diffuse the situation. He should have told the guy with the gun that they had already been in contact with CTU via Instant Message, CTU was aware of everything including the buildup to EMP, and if they wanted to avoid life in jail, or even death on a treason charge, they'd better shut it down, put away their guns, and cooperate immediately. They weren't going to fool anyone and they were only making it worse on themselves.
These guys go from deleting a few files, to EMPing their building (and several surrounding city blocks), to attempted murder in a mere 20 minutes. As you may have seen in the coming attractions for this week.........
SPOILER
They are bringing in a full attack team to kill Jack and Paul.
These guys need a vacation. Is there anyone in the world who would believe that they could get away with such a reckless and hastily devised cover-up? It's just stupid.
But I'll watch dammit, because I wanna see Jack kill someone.
In my opinion, Paul missed the opportunity last week to diffuse the situation. He should have told the guy with the gun that they had already been in contact with CTU via Instant Message, CTU was aware of everything including the buildup to EMP, and if they wanted to avoid life in jail, or even death on a treason charge, they'd better shut it down, put away their guns, and cooperate immediately. They weren't going to fool anyone and they were only making it worse on themselves.
PillowRock
Regular
I'm sorry, but that reasoning doesn't fly.
CTU already knows that Marwan had been working on the override device project. The government would also *know* whether or not they (the government) cleared him to be there.
If the company put Marwan on the project without getting the clearance from the government, then nothing that they do to destroy their own records at this point can possibly cover up that fact. They are already toast.
If they *did* get clearance from the government, then there is nothing for them to worry about on that front. That is the entire security screening procedure from their POV (see A_M_Swallow's post above).
Once again: Contractors do *not* do security screening for those kinds of governement projects. The government insists on keeping control of that (and, Can you really blame them?). Frankly, I seriously doubt that any of the contractors would want the responsibility in any event.
Jonny_Fever
Regular
Well I dont know about you, but I'm tired of arguing the point now. But I will say one more thing, we may never know exactly why they used it; but Im sure it was thought of as a story-telling device that would elict more tension and drama and make Jack and Paul cut off from any outside help. Next subject please.
A_M_Swallow
Regular
It is possible that the company did not clear everyone or employed people who had failed their clearances. It takes about 1 month to get clearance to Secret and 3 to 4 months to get clearance to Top Secret. The call up of reservists caused a major back long during the Gulf War. Not many cleaners will wait 4 months before taking up a job and scientists can get a little awkward.
The normal reason for failure is convictions for major drugs or theft. A scientist with a failed clearance is either a genius or works for a low wage.
If you have been living abroad in the last few years the vetters write to the police/government of that country. Now if that country is not a friend of the USA …
Blowing up the place to hide someone else failing their clearance is a little extreme. Now covering up faking your own clearance is a different matter.
The normal reason for failure is convictions for major drugs or theft. A scientist with a failed clearance is either a genius or works for a low wage.
If you have been living abroad in the last few years the vetters write to the police/government of that country. Now if that country is not a friend of the USA …
Blowing up the place to hide someone else failing their clearance is a little extreme. Now covering up faking your own clearance is a different matter.
Sinclair
Moderator
Tonight's episode was pretty good, although I really wasn't expecting McClennon Forster to have their own commando squad.
Did Michelle just turn into a bitch or what? I guess division does that to people: Alberta Green, George Mason, Ryan Chappelle. Getting rid of Sarah so quickly? I guess it still was kind of a bad time to demand the expungance from her record and a pay raise, but I don't think it warranted her being removed and fired.
That firefight with the two Arab guys helping out was pretty cool. I had a feeling one of them would get killed though. You think Paul's going to die or not?
That military guy, I'm still trying to figure out what he's up to. I kind of got the impression that he's going to try to kill the president or the first family or something. I'm still not sure on that.
Did Michelle just turn into a bitch or what? I guess division does that to people: Alberta Green, George Mason, Ryan Chappelle. Getting rid of Sarah so quickly? I guess it still was kind of a bad time to demand the expungance from her record and a pay raise, but I don't think it warranted her being removed and fired.
That firefight with the two Arab guys helping out was pretty cool. I had a feeling one of them would get killed though. You think Paul's going to die or not?
That military guy, I'm still trying to figure out what he's up to. I kind of got the impression that he's going to try to kill the president or the first family or something. I'm still not sure on that.
GaribaldisHair
Regular
We in the UK are a few eps behind you guys, having just seen episode 8 (2pm - 3pm), and I just can't get excited by this season.
I loved S1-3, they were must see TV for me, and are the only television seasons, other than B5, that I have bothered to buy on DVD, but S4 just seems to lack that over-arching sense of grave danger and tension that made the first 3 seasons so good.
On the one hand, I thought moving Jack out of CTU into a position with Secretary Heller was a good thing and would bring a new dynamic to the show, by the middle of ep1 he was back out in the field and doing the same job he did in S1-3. Wasted opportunity, especially when they killed Ronnie off so quickly.
On the other hand, whilst I am not a fan of TV shows doing the same thing season after season, by ep8 we are normally faced with Jack trying to avoid not only being killed by the bad guys but also shut down by his own people who are questioning both his loyalty and his methods. Apart from the first few eps, when there was a simple disagreement between Jack and Driscoll over how to deal with the situation, this hasn't happened and, because of that, the show feels more like a standard cop show than the 24 I have come to know and love, which only serves to make the 'real-time vs plot development' compromises much more obvious.
On top of that, the whole plot with Marianne leaking information was resolved far too quickly and easily, and creating too little tension, for my liking.
Likewise the nuclear reactor meltdowns. One wave of Edgar's magic wand and suddenly we are looking at only 6 reactors instead of 117 - but they still end up having to locate and shutdown the override device anyway. Am I alone in thinking that it might have created a bit more dramatic tension having to deal with the potential of 117 meltdowns rather than just 6?
They still have 16 eps to prove me wrong, and I hope they do, but the whole thing feels kind of flat - almost as if they are going through a checklist of stuff that they think 24 fans like
* Mole in CTU - check
* Jack going "off protocol" - check
* Torture - check
* Surprise reappearance of characters from previous seasons - check
* Jack gets an new car every other ep - check
* Jack has romantic liason that is ultimately doomed to tragedy - probably check
Come on 24, leave me on the edge of my seat already.
I loved S1-3, they were must see TV for me, and are the only television seasons, other than B5, that I have bothered to buy on DVD, but S4 just seems to lack that over-arching sense of grave danger and tension that made the first 3 seasons so good.
On the one hand, I thought moving Jack out of CTU into a position with Secretary Heller was a good thing and would bring a new dynamic to the show, by the middle of ep1 he was back out in the field and doing the same job he did in S1-3. Wasted opportunity, especially when they killed Ronnie off so quickly.
On the other hand, whilst I am not a fan of TV shows doing the same thing season after season, by ep8 we are normally faced with Jack trying to avoid not only being killed by the bad guys but also shut down by his own people who are questioning both his loyalty and his methods. Apart from the first few eps, when there was a simple disagreement between Jack and Driscoll over how to deal with the situation, this hasn't happened and, because of that, the show feels more like a standard cop show than the 24 I have come to know and love, which only serves to make the 'real-time vs plot development' compromises much more obvious.
On top of that, the whole plot with Marianne leaking information was resolved far too quickly and easily, and creating too little tension, for my liking.
Likewise the nuclear reactor meltdowns. One wave of Edgar's magic wand and suddenly we are looking at only 6 reactors instead of 117 - but they still end up having to locate and shutdown the override device anyway. Am I alone in thinking that it might have created a bit more dramatic tension having to deal with the potential of 117 meltdowns rather than just 6?
They still have 16 eps to prove me wrong, and I hope they do, but the whole thing feels kind of flat - almost as if they are going through a checklist of stuff that they think 24 fans like
* Mole in CTU - check
* Jack going "off protocol" - check
* Torture - check
* Surprise reappearance of characters from previous seasons - check
* Jack gets an new car every other ep - check
* Jack has romantic liason that is ultimately doomed to tragedy - probably check
Come on 24, leave me on the edge of my seat already.
B5_Obsessed
Regular
It's funny, but I've been commenting on The President from the start. He's been in the air for at least 13 hours now.
I think he's due for a refill. I believe all the activity on the ground was designed to keep him in the air in order to take out Air Force One with the refueling plane.
Talk about doing it the hard way.
