B5 Episodes You Prefer To Skip?

[Cell]

Interesting question: is a demon-possessed person, or a zombie, still considered human?

I think that all depends on the race or people in question. For the parents in Believers they don't consider their child to be a person anymore after the operation has been completed. How other races would view the idea of possession or loss of a soul in regards to still being a "person" I don't know.

 

[Truth_Seeker]

She was originally sent in to talk with them and to get them to stop fighting. Even in that instance B5 is still taking a stand on the "internal matter" and telling the Drazi that is has to stop because it doesn't jive with B5 policy/law.

Yes but the Drazi situation was different than the one in "Believers".The parents killed a member of their own kind but they didn't jeopardize the safety of the station or its inhabitants.The Drazi started fighting everywhere disrupting the normal life of 250 000 humans and aliens.

Anyway this is a nice discussion that we're having here.B5 law against alien law.There could be whole thread about that.

 

[hypatia]

Indeed. It's a point I never thought much about. Was JMS completely consistent in this? I tend to see it the way Truth-Seeker does: it was the disruption to the rest of the station that made Sheridan attempt to talk to the Drazi. And perhaps, again, Sinclair wouldn't even have done this (laws must be interpreted, again, and the commanding officer is the one who has to/gets to do that on B5).

But I can see the argument that it's really an inconsistency, too. I'd have to rewatch both episodes first to really be sure.

 

[GKarsEye]

The purple/green thing involved mass violence throughout the station and was a danger to everyone on the station. Sinclair's (or was it Sheridan by that point?) first responsibility is the safety of the station.

If the Drazi wanted to get into a room and fight each other, maybe that would have been allowed, as it would be internal.

 

[hypatia]

It was Sheridan. I remember that smile of his as he assigned Ivanova the task of dealing with the Drazi, and commenting somehow on how her position also involved exercising diplomacy. :devil:

 

[Truth_Seeker]

It was Sheridan. I remember that smile of his as he assigned Ivanova the task of dealing with the Drazi, and commenting somehow on how her position also involved exercising diplomacy. :devil:

Yeah it was strange how he treated her like a schoolgirl.She had one whole year of experience in dealing with that kind of problems as the second in command of B5.She was not a rookie after all.

 

[PillowRock]

Geometry Of Shadows on the other hand shows how B5 intervenes in the internal policies of the Drazi when they clash with B5 law.

They got involved diplomatically, because it became an issue that involved other species present in the bars etc. where the fights occurred.

They did *not* apply EA laws to the Drazi for performing their legal-under-Drazi-law acts of violence against each other. If they had done that, virtually every Drazi on the station (except the one or two with diplomatic immunity) would have been jailed for assault and battery.

 

[hypatia]

Yeah it was strange how he treated her like a schoolgirl.She had one whole year of experience in dealing with that kind of problems as the second in command of B5.She was not a rookie after all.

But she was a person of action, primarily. This assignment was different for her, and perhaps he learned enough about her already to know it would, in many ways, be more of a challenge to her than ordering her into hand-to-hand combat alone with the lot of them.

 

[GaribaldisHair]

He didn't treat her like a schoolgirl, he just took pleasure in pointing out that with her promotion came the responsibility to get involved in more of the diplomatic matters on the station ... the first of which was to try and talk some sense into the Drazi.

Don't forget that Sheridan and Ivanova already knew each other and had already served together. Real human beings have that kind of banter and relationship all the time, especially over things like ...

"Hmm, this is a really tricky one ... let me know how you get on!"

 

[Cell]

If the Drazi wanted to get into a room and fight each other, maybe that would have been allowed, as it would be internal.

Actually, that is exact;y what they were in the middle of doing and wanted to do some more when they started killing each other. At that point they weren't affecting anyone else on the station and had actually found a solution that would end the conflict, but yet B5 still got involved. It's an inconsistency in the continuity of the series.

 

[Jan]

Actually, that is exact;y what they were in the middle of doing and wanted to do some more when they started killing each other. At that point they weren't affecting anyone else on the station and had actually found a solution that would end the conflict, but yet B5 still got involved. It's an inconsistency in the continuity of the series.

I have to disagree with that. While still in Medlab, Ivanova got word from C&C that the Drazi homeworld had notified them that the Greens had started killing people rather than just hurting them. When Ivanova got to the Council Chambers where the next talks were to take place she found the dead Purple Drazi.

Later on when she was captured the Green Leader wanted her to help him trap the Purples in Brown Twenty-nine so that they could open the hatch and kill them all.

That's hardly having found a solution to get together and fight it out without affecting anyone else on the station and, having kidnapped Ivanova, they had to have known the station would get involved.

No inconsistancy in the continuity at all.

Jan

 

[Recoil]

Not to stray too off topic, but this was a plotline of an episode that just never worked for me. I dug the "Technomage" part of this episode, so I would never skip it, but the Drazi thing was just way too much for me.

It is clearly a VERY heavy-handed attempt to make a comment about racism. Almost as blatant as that Star Trek TOS episode with the guys with the black and white faces (which also sucked). But to think that this race we had seen for a couple seasons basically split into two factions and beat the shit out of each other over a piece of cloth was kinda weak IMO. The resolution (interstellar stuff caught up in committee) also was sort of a cop-out.

I got the message, and its an important one, don't get me wrong. But the episode was just a bit too heavy-handed in my tastes. I tend to ignore that story and focus on the mages.

 

[vacantlook]

I've never looked at the Drazi part of the episode as being about racism, heavy handed or otherwise, before. I've always seen it within the greater story arc of the entire series: that their green/purple conflict subtly reveals Shadow influence in Drazi history. The meaningless conflict has the Shadow's philosophy of chaos and survival of the fittest written all over it.

 

[hypatia]

Yea, people don't change their races periodically. Racism is an issue that must be dealt with from childhood on. That's why emotions tend to run so deep.

This is more like an out-of-control frat. hazing session.

 

[GKarsEye]

Actually, that is exact;y what they were in the middle of doing and wanted to do some more when they started killing each other. At that point they weren't affecting anyone else on the station and had actually found a solution that would end the conflict, but yet B5 still got involved. It's an inconsistency in the continuity of the series.

Are you referring to the plan one group had to exterminate the other? They wanted Ivanova to help with that, thus making it not internal.

 

[Cell]

I have to disagree with that. While still in Medlab, Ivanova got word from C&C that the Drazi homeworld had notified them that the Greens had started killing people rather than just hurting them. When Ivanova got to the Council Chambers where the next talks were to take place she found the dead Purple Drazi.

Later on when she was captured the Green Leader wanted her to help him trap the Purples in Brown Twenty-nine so that they could open the hatch and kill them all.

That's hardly having found a solution to get together and fight it out without affecting anyone else on the station and, having kidnapped Ivanova, they had to have known the station would get involved.

No inconsistancy in the continuity at all.

Jan

The fact that Ivanova got involved after finding the dead Drazi is a major continuity error with Believers. If the policy of B5 truly was to not interfere in internal matters (which it isn't because honestly that is a stupid notion that would lead to rampant chaos on the station) then she would not have continued on with the Drazi. One Drazi killed another Drazi according to an internal policy that they had, and that death didn't effect anyone else on station but the Drazi. Yet, she still went ahead and got involved, that is a major continuity error and inconsistency in storytelling.

Are you referring to the plan one group had to exterminate the other? They wanted Ivanova to help with that, thus making it not internal.

Nope, I'm referring to her continued involvement after finding the lone dead Drazi and then finding out that said Drazi was dead because of a policy change back on the Drazi homeworld.

 

[Jan]

The fact that Ivanova got involved after finding the dead Drazi is a major continuity error with Believers. If the policy of B5 truly was to not interfere in internal matters (which it isn't because honestly that is a stupid notion that would lead to rampant chaos on the station) then she would not have continued on with the Drazi. One Drazi killed another Drazi according to an internal policy that they had, and that death didn't effect anyone else on station but the Drazi. Yet, she still went ahead and got involved, that is a major continuity error and inconsistency in storytelling.

Two points: First, where is it stated that it was the policy of B5 to not interfere in internal matters? It wasn't in "Believers" because one of the major points of that episode was that Sinclair had established a precedent in "The Gathering" when he ordered Kosh's life saved despite the Vorlon Government's express orders.

Second, there was no "One Drazi killed another Drazi according to an internal policy that they had...". *Several* Drazi were killed in the Council Chamber and it wasn't due to any official policy at all, simply a change in tactics by the Green Drazi.

Jan

 

[GKarsEye]

VL and Recoil, I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with both of you about the green/purple thing: it's not about racism, because the sides are chosen randomly. And it's not about Shadow influence- I remember nothing to suggest a Shadow influence here.

A common B5 fan approach I disagree with is to approach way too much in the show to the Shadow vs Vorlon. Conflict is a part of nature. It's just that the Shadows and Vorlons take advantage of these natural characteristics to further their goals.

The point of the green/purple thing is to spoof senseless violence.
My biggest criticism of the B5 is its oft-failed attempts at broad, big-brush humor, and I think this is just one such case.

 

[Jan]

FWIW, this is what JMS said in his intro to "The Geometry of Shadows" in the script books:

Which brings us to the Drazi War. When I wrote this episode, I wanted
to make a subtle (well, okay, not terribly subtle) point about the arbitrariness and
foolishness of war. If you substitute flags for scarves, as a Drazi here suggests, the
point becomes clearer still.

If the fighting had always been to the death, I'd be inclined to think that the battles were Shadow-influenced. Since it had always been just for supremacy for the next five years, though, I think it was just a rather beligerant way to hold an election every five years.

Jan

 

[Recoil]

OK GKE you reminded me of something. I guess when I watched it I felt parallels to both.

1) The Drazi talking about the dead other guy who was his buddy last week, and he simply calls him "Purple" to me felt like a shot at racism.

2) Ivanova talking to the Drazi about killing for a piece of cloth, and the Drazi saying that you kill for a flag (She says "thats different") I now remember did rub me as being a shot at war/violence.

So I guess for me it had ties to both, even though JMS writes that it was meant for the latter. Either way it was done in a way that was just a "miss" for me.