B5:TLT - Show Discussion Thread (Spoilers)

[Recoil]

Well my DVD arrived today and I watched it. I wait to go into more detail when I get back from the B5TV Vegas trip this weekend, but here is the short of it.

I liked it.

OK too short.

Like a lot of people, I wasn't really waiting with baited breath for this DVD to arrive. I wasn't overly excited. Perhaps it was the Rangers falling flat that toned me down a bit. Perhaps it was the tease, or rather the "almost was" of The Memory of Shadows. Perhaps it was that I knew this was only 2 35 minute stories. Either way, I wasn't as excited as I might have been a few years ago about this.

That being said, while I wasn't super hyped up leading to the release of the DVD...when it actually arrived, I was very excited to sit down and watch the first B5 (TRUE B5, not other characters in the B5 universe) since the show went off the air and the TNT movies aired. (I never saw the TNT movies live, I got into B5 just before Rangers aired).

I think we got what we should have expected. Two little stories that told a small part of the B5 universe, and both were very well done. I really liked both of them. The first one was a bit creepy and mythical, but I really like where they went with the conclusion of that story. The second one I liked even better.

I think they were both very well done, and nice little stories. I would look forward to seeing more. Sure it isn't a movie, but I think it did very nice by what it was.

And how cool was it to see the station looking as good as it did in high-resolution CGI quality? It NEVER looked so good.

P.S. How hot did Teryl Rothery look as the reporter? DAMN. She was certainly a nice addition, and I think she fit into that little part nicely. Also, into that little blouse nicely...

 

[vacantlook]

So, my copy of the DVD arrived in the mail today. I watched it late this evening, and I loved pretty much the entire thing. To get it out of the way, when Sheridan made his few comments about G'Kar being off beyond the rim, it got a definite and strong emotional reaction from me, so that put me in the mood for a relatively sizable cry when I watched the two memorial segments in the extras afterward.

Now, on to the stories. Galen felt very... interesting, for lack of a better word, in this. In ACTA and Crusade, Galen always felt relatively friendly despite his distance, mysteriousness, and arrogance. But here in TLT, he had an ominous quality to him. He felt more threatening -- sinister, even. As I watched, I wasn't really sure he could be trusted. I never thought Sheridan would actually shoot, especially since I had watched the trailer so many times and in such detail that I knew the Prince Regent made it onto the station, but I wasn't expecting Sheridan to invite the guy to come live on Minbar. Up to that point, I had felt the Prince Regent was a decent one-off character, but the thought of him on Minbar actually makes me quite interested to see more of him, should the chance ever arise. While the Prince Regent's dream of being in the starfury ended up being from Galen, I was beginning to wonder if it had actually been the Prince Regent's death-dream that Centauri are known for having. I even went so far as to wonder if the Prince Regent's statement that in the dream after piloting the starfury for a while "something wonderful happens" was the PR refering to his death and the escape from the stresses of being a person of his status in Centauri society was causing him. Of course, I'm glad it wasn't his death-dream, as I said before, I think seeing more of him on Minbar would be fun.

As for the quantum space, I don't have a problem with that. It's technology they've discovered and use, but I don't see anything contradictory in not having had anything about it before. I can imagine a great number of people would seriously dislike travelling via quantum space for nothing more than the unpleasantness of the jump, which we were shown. Most people would pick the less sick-inducing method of travel via hyperspace, and quantum space would be used by those who didn't mind the discomfort, which would be few, and by those who needed it for travelling with urgency. I really see it being little different that some situations we have here today in our society. Some people thoroughly hate the sensation of travelling by plane, so they go by car. Some people would make use of quantum space, others would just refuse and only go via hyperspace out of hating the way quantum space jumping felt. It really isn't some big conundrum.

So, that brings me to the first story, which I've purposefully decided to talk about last. I really liked it. A lot. I've never felt a need for every B5 story to "feel" like every other B5 story. I enjoy variety of style and see no problem with B5 stories taking the opportunity to do a story outside of the baseline style. Besides, this is an anthology series. The stories don't need to feel like endless versions of "Severed Dreams" or "Endgame" or whathaveyou.

I've got to say, I've read so many comments now of people complaining about the religious perspective to this story, and I just don't get it. People have said that this story absolutely says that God absolutely exists, and I do not see that presented in this episode at all. I see some characters having a perspective. I see a being claiming to be a demon, but all very easily could be some form of alien being that was exiled on Earth to await the day in which it is destroyed by the destruction of Earth. I see a being claiming God-wants-this and God-wants-that, but see no proof whatsoever of a firm statement that God exists. The "demon" sets up a theological debate because it knows that those are terms familiar to the two characters it's engaging.

We know the Vorlons structured their encounters with others to make others see them as some sort of holy beings of light, but that was always to their own purposes. So too here, we see a being possessing a man and using what tools it has available to him to try to get himself set free in space so it can escape the prison that Earth is for it. The "demon"'s tools are manipulation of others. It needs to be set free of its possession of the man, so that tells us that it can't do so on its own. So how does it go about it? It's not through the priest being Catholic. It's not through a human religious ritual of exorcism. Both of those are just more tools that the "demon" is using. What it needs is use of its name. It states very clearly that names have power (this is not a new idea in speculative fiction). That's what it needs to be released from the man and be free in space: its name used. Not a particular religion, but something that for one reason or another holds sway over this alien being: the use of its name.

Lockley takes up the debate with this "demon" in the terms the "demon" has established the debate with: that of demons and God. Just because Lockley makes her points with those terms does not mean that she doesn't view this being as an alien, nor does it mean that God is being definitively stated as being real in the B5 universe. I'm just so shocked by how many comments say that the definity of God's existance is spelled out in this story when no such thing takes place. I never knew that B5 fans needed things blatantly spelled out for them in order for them to understand it. But the entire time I watched this story, I never once thought "demons and God are real, they just said so". Instead, I saw characters tackle a being in debate of personality, wit, and will in that being's chosen arena for said debate. The being had a clear goal eventually revealed: freedom from being bound to Earth. And the means through reaching that goal being temporarily bound to a man and efforting to trick someone into using its name to free it. But its plans were foiled by Lockley recognizing that Earth was its prison. She swatted the being down in terms of the debate as the being structured it, but it in no way was a direct "God exists" statement. Why so many people seem to need it blatantly spelled out, I don't know. It seemed pretty clear to me.

So, yeah, I liked TLT a lot. I enjoyed the updated visual effects. I enjoyed the emotionality of it. I enjoyed the moral dilemmas. I enjoyed long speeches. I enjoyed the quick humorous lines. I want more; I want a lot more.

 

[Ranger1]

goddamn i am so glad i got R1. i wasn't getting a figurative hard'on with anticipation, but i have one for disc 2, both stories were awesome, the first one was similar to a debate i had with one of my pals and the second story was just plain brilliant. the mention about Franklin and G'Kar exploring beyond the rim together was really nicely done, and got me a little emotional.

Bring on disc 2.

 

[n_stock]

Here are some of my very lengthy thoughts.

Both parts of Lost Tales were excellent This is an anthology series and so needs to be judged a bit differently than an episodic series.

I felt that the Lochley story was very well done. Shades of Twilight Zone meet Babylon 5. However, that's not to say jms hasn't done stories in the Babylon 5 universe like this before; think River of Souls and Thirdspace. While the theme of the story isn't one that Babylon 5 brings up a lot it isn't the first time Babylon 5 has played in this area. As for the controversy that it has started please remember the following few things:

1. jms is an atheist, so jms personally does not believe in the existence God, angels, or any of those things.

2. While he maintains his atheism jms has also said on Sept. 9, 1993:

Let me just lay the foundation here for a moment in the area of religion and Babylon 5. I'm an atheist, that simple. But that's me. If you look at the long history of human society, religion -- whether you describe that as organized, disorganized, or the various degrees of accepted superstition -- has always been present. And it will be present 200 years from now. That may not thrill me, but when one is a writer, one must deal with realities, and that's one of them. To totally ignore that part of the human equation would be as false and wrong-headed as ignoring the fact that people get mad, or passionate, or strive for better lives.

So we do deal with the questions of religion, and spirituality, and their definitions, without being abusive. A couple of stories on this area, like David Gerrold's "Believers" may be very controversial. On the other hand, my script for "The Parliament of Dreams" is a straight-ahead showcase, in which every species on B5 is encouraged to demonstrate his or her dominant belief system, as practiced back home. So we learn more about Minbari religion, more about the Centauri's rather Bacchanallian form of religion, along with others. And Sinclair is put in the difficult position of being asked to show what Earth's dominant belief system is. The solution to which is, I think, kinda cool.

In the Babylon 5 universe, all the things that make us human -- our obsessions, our interests, our language, our culture, our flaws and our wonderfulnesses -- are all still intact.

jms

He also said on April 13, 1995:

. . .the work of the author does not always represent what the author believes on a 1-1 basis. (If it did, there'd be NO religion in B5.)

The quote I believe most pertinent to this discussion, however, is from June 14, 1997:

I think that if I were using my show as a bludgeon to convey my own personal beliefs, or lack thereof, as an atheist, that would be a whole different kettle of fish. But I don't. I have an obligation as a writer before anything and everything else...that means that if I create a character who is religious, I must treat that character with respect and, just as importantly, *authenticity*. I must, in short, be *fair*.

3. In Issue 217 of TV Zone, as promotion for The Lost Tales, the magazine interviewed Tracy Scoggins and Tracy said she was a practicing Christian and hinted that that was why jms gave her the story line that he did. jms has repeatedly said he believes the best way to have an actor act well is if their character shares similar traits.

4. If anyone has either seen the Twilight Zone, any other anthology series, or read any of jms's B5 short stories you would know that the format doesn't allow of great amounts of time to present alternative viewpoints like in Soul Hunter or Believers. Most anthology series that I'm familiar with present a problem and then have a character go at it. Twilight Zone left the meaning up to the viewer which I think “Over There” has also done.

As for the "lack" of extras, I think it can be explained given where the story took place - blue sector and Lochley's room. According to the Babylon 5 Security Manual only command personnel is allowed in blue sector. I counted 11 appearances by extras at least 3 of those were the same extra, 1 of them (and one of the three) was a security officer, and 2 of them were Minbari. Of course, we know that there were cases where other people got on blue sector, but those were exceptions and noted as such in episodes. While this might be the brig, the episode doesn’t say. I think it is probably a makeshift cell.

Maybe the reason why some don't like the story is because there is no B plot to make the A plot less intense, but it all goes back to format and the format doesn’t allow for B plots.

I thought the Sheridan/Galen story was more in line with expectations and so is seen as being better. I thought it was also very well done and leaves the door open for perhaps seeing Prince Vintari later on down the road.

The most interesting idea I've not seen discussed is, does "going beyond the rim" always mean death? We know G'Kar dies in 2278 and Dr. Franklin is seen in Sleeping in Light, so while the actors are dead we know the characters cannot be dead at this point in the story. The way Lochley refers to Dr. Franklin as exploring beyond the rim and Sheridan talks about G'Kar gives me the idea that the characters are just on a mission and will come back not that they’re speaking euphorically, which we know as actors they are.

I had no problem with Quantum Space; I would like to know how they got the Vorlon technology, but maybe that will be explained.

As to how G’Kar’s trip jives with the Centauri trilogy, here’s the facts: when we last hear about G’Kar in Book 2 he’s on Centauri Prime with Garibaldi in between Londo’s May 5, 2270 entry and the January 18, 2271 entry; at end of the book Londo writes in his journal dated April 18, 2273 that foreigners are banned from Centauri Prime; we next see G’Kar in Book 3 after Londo’s May 14, 2274 entry on Minbar. Therefore, I see no immediate problem with The Lost Tales and the Centauri trilogy.

 

[legend]

I had to register to voice my opinion on this movie. I hate to be ALL negative here but I am not happy with this movie and stunned that diehard fans can even appreciate this. I am the biggest B5 fan (in my own way) I've watched every single episode more times than I can count and I enjoy all 6 movies, have everything on DVD and even got my girlfriend into it. We just got a nice LCD and we are watching the series for the second time together. I even did a report in school about this show years ago to show you how much I love Babi. It's my favorite show of all time and I have been a fan since the first season aired originally on TV.

This felt nothing like a babi, it felt like someone else bought the rights and this is what they came up with.

I am an atheist. I believe in science but I am a very nice, moral guy. And though JMS has brought up religion in the past, as mentioned before, he has always carefully and briefly shown different sides to the coin. My girlfriend and I were blown away by the first 35 minutes of the movie. Simply blown away. I'm ok with religion when its not forced down my throat as fact continually, in every sentance for half an hour. I don't understnad how Vacant_look doesnt see this. Now if your a hardcore Christian than I can see not being offended, but EVERY sentance seemed like JMS was trying to prove that God exists. Even the line about how even scientists have concluded that there has to something "intellient" design to all this. That's BS JMS; there is a reason why the overwhelming majority of "scientists" actually believe in evolution vs. creatism. I even went into this movie, reading what you guys have been saying, knowing there's going to be this talk with the priest and the movie has some religious overtones, and I was ready to look past that and just enjoy the movie for what it had to offer, but all it offered was religious babel. I was not prepared to receive more religious propaganda than you'd get from an entire sermon on Sunday morning. I'm serious, I used to be religious and attended church for many years and nothing I heard in church was this offensive. They would at least take a break every once in a while and sing a song or something. But here, every word was trying to further prove more than the last that there's a God. Excorisms, the cliched Lucifer voice, the caring, non-child molesting, priest, I had to check the box as I thought this was the Exorcist 4 - the devil in space.

Then there's some inconsistancies. After the first meeting with the "possesed'" guy, the priest says to Lockley that he thinks its a hoax and that this person showed no signs of a "special abilities". WHAT?!! He just changed the smell of the room with you inside. Changing smells on the fly doesn't count as "special". Then we are supposed to believe that the devil is trapped on Earth - lucky us, thousands of planets and he happens to be on ours, in a physical form of some kind apparantly. JMS can't even give the devil more credit than that? Then it was said that when Earth dies, the devil will die along with it? Really, none of you have a problem with this? This doesn't seem weird at all? Can't God do something about this? Could'nt he come down and say "Hey, I know you like this planet and all but the devil is here, so how about you abondon the planet, I'll send the sun into supernova and then the devil will die and there will be no more evil in the galaxy". How many things are wrong with this whole scenerio? So JMS said the devil can die? Does that mean God can die? Can anyone think out of the box at this one and look at this logically and rationally? You really have to be religious to accept the first part to the movie here. Sad, sad....

Of course, I loved the special effects, they were unbelievable - what we saw of them at least!! The music was fine, but had there been some stuff actually go on in the movie than maybe Chistopher could have made some of his usual dramatic and dark tunes. There was no action, ZERO action. Think about the other movies, all had action AND a story. Anyone who thinks this movie had action needs a slap. I do NOT count that stupid vision of Galen (whom I desire to see on screen as much as Byron), that was mirely a 15 second skirmish that was not even real. Galen was premired after the series and was part of the ridiculous Excalibur crew. We should not have attachments to this terrible actor/character. The first techno-mage from season 2 was great and looked and acted the role. Galen sucks!! I don't know what you guys see in him. I know its not his acting ability.

It also would have been nice to have a few other familar faces in the movie. There were about 20 people from the original cast that could have poped in, especially if this is going to be the start of a new life for the B5.
But after all these years, we can only get 2.

Then we move onto the heart-warming tale of Sheridan's adoption. This was one evil kid and I would have like to see him killed. That would have been a nice, dark, unsettling move, but given what was at stake, a necessary one. That shocking action might have actually sparked some life into this otherwise dull, dialogue-heavy movie. But John finds a nice sweet way to take care of this and bring the kid under his wing. Ahhh, how cute. The kid could still turn evil and MAYBE this adoption was the catalist for him wanting to destroy Earth. Given what was on the line, I can't imagine taking a risk like John did. And saying that he'd take care of the boy if needed is unrealistic and a cheap way for JMS to cover his butt on that one.

This TLT movie had no redeeming qualities, no conflict, nothing creative nor smart, no drama, no style, no length, no connection to the best 5 year series of anything ever, no cast, no thoughtful dialogue, and has no replayablilty. That's right, no replayablitly!! Do you really want to see a 30 minute discussion about faith and the devil followed by a sympathetic John adopting a young kid. OOOHHH yeah, I can't wait to watch that again and again and again. And then after, on to my "7th heaven" marathon and my 700 Club DVDs.

B5 is the best scifi series ever for its special effects, well choreographed battles, the characters, the aliens, the sub-plots per episode as well as the evolving ongoing story, the AMAZING music, the many awards and last, but not least, the HUMOR. Where was the humor in this movie. I did not crack a smile ONCE!! How can any of you deny this?? No humor or sharp wit anywhere. It can't be a movie without some humor in there.

After so many years, this is what had come out of JMS. The next movie better have Garabaldi and cover the tep war or something. This movie was the biggest disappointment to B5 ever (not including Crusade).

PS: If JMS recieves email or feedback, I would love to send him a copy of my thoughts here.


EDIT:Nstock, I was writing before you posted that. I glad JMS is a fellow atheist but that confuses me even more. Why would he be so gun-ho about God in the movie. It still does not seem smart to start this TLT series off with 30 minutes of why God exists.

 

[Ranger1]

dude i kind of have to ignore your thoughts on the first story, because i know plenty of people who were evangelical types, then saw its hypocrisy and are now vehement atheists (i have no connection to any organised faith by the way), so i understand where your argument comes from. i didn't feel that religion was being forced down my throat at any point, and have always been fascinated by how JMS shows human faiths, particularly foundationism and brother theo's order of monks. also, who NEEDS action? the kind of people who thought War Without End sucked? well fuck them. now you may have thought story was lacking, but consider this for a second there will be more stories, now these two interwove slightly, and who's to say parts of the second story won't surface at a later date, either connections in the stories of other characters, or in some future project. you claim to have watched every episode more times than you can count, so surely you have noticed that this happens, think of disc one purely as a prologue for the journeys ahead.


i much like yourself believe in evolution over creationism, however because i allow myself to be open to other ideas, it has occured to me in the past, that the bible has been translated at least three times, just to get it into english, and mistakes are made in translation, no one language can be directly translated to another. ask yourself this, could the original wording of the book of genesis have been translated incorrectly? rather than being made IN god's image we were instead made to BECOME god's image? however i did find it odd that nobody thought that perhaps the "demon" was a left over ally of the shadows trying to fuck with peoples minds.


P.S. Crusade was a very cool show, Legends of the rangers however made me look back at Byron with fondness.

 

[raw_bean]

Wow, legend. I disagree with you on so many points there I don't know where to start, other than to say rather than it having no replay value, I personally cannot wait to watch it again (first viewing last night).

I agree with vacantlook above on the ambiguity over this 'demonic' possession,

Firstly, the way I remember it, the 'demon' is not the first one to suggest it is a demon, or that God has any existence or relevance to the possession, the priest does, and the 'demon' doesn't even outright say that he's right, just allows him to believe that. A lot of the dialogue I remember him using regarding God was wholly hypothetical in its expression, and in the more concrete statements he made about his own state of being he didn't explicitly use the name 'God'. In fact, thinking about the way the Vorlons used religious symbolism to influence the lesser races, it occurred to me straight away that the 'binding of demons' to Earth in order to instil fear and thus religious fervour in humans was a very Vorlon-esque method of control. In this way, even if the 'demon' did a sepcifically need religious exorcism ceremony rather than just the use of its name, it could be because the Vorlons conditioned or bound it to need that.

Secondly, the big giveaway for me was when the 'demon' telepathically listened in on Lochley and the priest's conversation, found they didn't necessarily believe it was a demon, find out what would convince them (an unmistakeable display of supernatural power), and then went about trying to convince them. Though it could still work either way, to me that whole sequence felt like something trying to pretend it was a demon, and not being exactly sure how to convince them until they gave it the clues.

So while you can take the story at surface value as one of demonic possession, I personally see it as an incorporeal, telepathic Vorlon servant (almost like the Vorlon equivalent of the Shadows' soldier of darkness that possessed Amis in S2) trying to rebel and escape from it's now useless-duty of instilling religious fervour (and thus conditioning towards Vorlon sub-servience) on Earth, but still bound in the theological framework they built into him and therefore needing the ritual of an exorcism to escape.

 

[RMcD]

Maybe the demon thing would become an ongoing theme in future Lost Tales, and we might find out more about it? (it might make sense for there to be some common threads in an anthology show - perhaps like the first season of the new outer limits, which tried to tie some things together in its final episode IIRC). This also happens to be JMS' specialty.

I also wonder if the Garibaldi segment that was dropped might have revealed more about it, and that's why there only seems to be one perspective in the first segment (damn, I want to see it now more than ever but have to wait for September!)

 

[Ranger1]

Maybe the demon thing would become an ongoing theme in future Lost Tales, and we might find out more about it? (it might make sense for there to be some common threads in an anthology show - perhaps like the first season of the new outer limits, which tried to tie some things together in its final episode IIRC). This also happens to be JMS' specialty.

I also wonder if the Garibaldi segment that was dropped might have revealed more about it, and that's why there only seems to be one perspective in the first segment (damn, I want to see it now more than ever but have to wait for September!)

is disc 2 out in September then? and has the Garibaldi segment been dropped for disc 4? i don't know any of this because i have tried to stay as clean as possible, this has meant all i have heard concerning any of it is bits and pieces thus have no idea when the next section is coming.

 

[Jan]

is disc 2 out in September then? and has the Garibaldi segment been dropped for disc 4? i don't know any of this because i have tried to stay as clean as possible, this has meant all i have heard concerning any of it is bits and pieces thus have no idea when the next section is coming.

I believe that September refers to when the Region 2 disk comes out. No second disk has been greenlit so far. And as far as we know, the Garibaldi segment is still scheduled for the second disk, assuming that arrangements can be made with Jerry Doyle.

Jan

 

[RMcD]

is disc 2 out in September then? and has the Garibaldi segment been dropped for disc 4? i don't know any of this because i have tried to stay as clean as possible, this has meant all i have heard concerning any of it is bits and pieces thus have no idea when the next section is coming.

Yeah, sorry Ranger1, Jan is right, didn't mean to cause any undue excitement there, I just meant I have to wait til September 3rd (as far as we know) to see this first disk because I live in the UK, but thought I would chip in anyway because the discussions are so interesting..

EDIT: And today I see the listing has finally appeared on amazon.co.uk with the September 3rd release date apparently confirmed!!! http://www.amazon.co.uk/Babylon-5-T...-0608616?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1186144923&sr=8-14 Although it seems you still can't pre-order it yet, and there's no pricing..

 

[Sindatur]

Wow, I'm shocked anyone Aetheist would think the Lochley episode took the side of Religion. Looking at it through an Aetheistic prism, I thought the episode showed very clearly that God is not a certainty. The "Demon" never said the name God, the Priest did, and the "Demon" merely went with it. The Priest talked about how venturing into space has eroded faith in God. How come people can't see that Lorien (or any other big, bad ancient race) could be the roots behind the Faith of God.

Looking at it from through my own personal views of Faith (but, not belonging to an organized religion, and completely against "Fire and Brimstone" religion) it seems to me, it would be more likely that Fundamentalists would be upset at the fact the episode suggested that God could just be an Alien that a myth was built around, even the Priest himself, the way I read it was sturggling with his own Faith, and I didn't see that change, especially after Lochley gave the "demon" the slap down, and proved you don't have to be a Theologen to get the better of a "demon"

I thoroughly enjoyed the first episode, it was very Twilight-zone-ish or like an episode of A Haunting. There is every reason to believe, in my mind that JMS was slyly slamming religion and showing it is just mythology created by someone who didn't comprehend an Alien visitation (and the prior history we have with the Vorlons appearing as Aliens to manipulate us, proves that point to me). At the beginning, when the priest asked Lochley about her Faith, I didn't get the impression he was trying to verify she was religious (she called him for an Excorcism for Christ's sake). I thought he was asking her in order to ensure she wasn't a Fundamentalist Fire and Brimstone Whack job that was going to look down on him.

 

[vacantlook]

...I'm ok with religion when its not forced down my throat as fact continually, in every sentance for half an hour. I don't understnad how Vacant_look doesnt see this. Now if your a hardcore Christian than I can see not being offended, but EVERY sentance seemed like JMS was trying to prove that God exists....

I'm agnostic, and I in no way see any attempts being made to force religion or proof of God on me. What I did see were characters in a story having their respective perspectives. I never assume a characters' perspective is the ultimate statement of reality about a situation. What is not forced down the viewers' throats is a blatant spelling out that the demon is an alien. We don't need all the characters running around barking "he's an alien, not a demon" all over the story in order to understand that. For some reason it seems some people do need it, but that's not a flaw in the story.

...Even the line about how even scientists have concluded that there has to something "intellient" design to all this....

Can you please very precisely quote that line? I don't remember that being stated at all. What I do remember was the priest saying that there had been plenty of people over the years who had hoped that eventually science would find some indication of intelligence if they looked smaller and smaller enough into particles, but that nothing had ever been found, and that that lack of finding proof had caused more and more loss of faith over the centuries.

Then there's some inconsistancies. After the first meeting with the "possesed'" guy, the priest says to Lockley that he thinks its a hoax and that this person showed no signs of a "special abilities". WHAT?!! He just changed the smell of the room with you inside. Changing smells on the fly doesn't count as "special"....

They specifically address the change in smell within the priest's proposed hoax hypothesis. The priest comments on the significant power of suggestion, and that's only one possible means that would enable a change in smell, or temperature, that would still allow it be a hoax. Do you really need to be shown every option? I don't think there's time for that.

...Then we are supposed to believe that the devil is trapped on Earth - lucky us, thousands of planets and he happens to be on ours, in a physical form of some kind apparantly....

When was there ever a mentioning that this possessive demon had a physical form? I would think the very fact that this being is possessing someone to try to escape from Earth shows that it doesn't have a physical form.

...Can't God do something about this? Could'nt he come down and say "Hey, I know you like this planet and all but the devil is here, so how about you abondon the planet, I'll send the sun into supernova and then the devil will die and there will be no more evil in the galaxy"....

Perhaps because despite the characters considering the situation with the potential for God's involvement, what humans believe about God and what the reality in the situation of this possessing "demon" being bound to Earth as imprisonment are not the same. Just because the "demon" says that God bound it to Earth and the characters consider that possibility in no way equates that with the reality of the situation.

...So JMS said the devil can die?...

jms said no such thing. All we got for certain was a human figuring out that a being that claimed to be a demon was a being that was bound to Earth, and in being bound to Earth would then logically be destroyed if Earth was destroyed. What's with the assumption that a character in a story's beliefs = jms's personal beliefs?

...You really have to be religious to accept the first part to the movie here....

No, one does not. One just has to be able to not take every little thing at face-value.

...There was no action, ZERO action....

Babylon 5 has had a lot of action in it over the years, but it never was an action-story. It was always about the characters -- what they think, believe, hope, and feel. It was always about making choices, and the consequences of making choices. And that's exactly what we got in TLT.

 

[Jan]

I'm agnostic, and I in no way see any attempts being made to force religion or proof of God on me. What I did see were characters in a story having their respective perspectives. I never assume a characters' perspective is the ultimate statement of reality about a situation. What is not forced down the viewers' throats is a blatant spelling out that the demon is an alien. We don't need all the characters running around barking "he's an alien, not a demon" all over the story in order to understand that. For some reason it seems some people do need it, but that's not a flaw in the story.

Nicely put. Very nicely put.

Can you please very precisely quote that line? I don't remember that being stated at all. .

There was a sentence about some scientists 'trying to soften the blow' by saying that the movements of some small particles seem to indicate purpose, I think. I'll have to check when I get home. But it's still just a character expressing something.

What's with the assumption that a character in a story's beliefs = jms's personal beliefs?

Yeah, isn't that kind of like saying that since he writes about Narns and Vorlons that he thinks they really exist? I've seen people in the past say that JMS couldn't write as well as he does about religion if he doesn't believe. Not so. He understands the religious impulse from having experienced it but no longer believes. Having experienced it, he can write about it honestly when it's appropriate for his characters but that doesn't mean he actually believes in gods or demons any more than he believes in First Ones or Shadows.

Jan

 

[Sindatur]

Waitaminnit Jan, are you now trying to say JMS doesn't believe in First Ones or Narns?




Man, I'm crushed now

 

[Jan]

Sorry, Sindatur. I thought you already knew. It's a blow, isn't it?

Jan

 

[darth_librarian]

Yeah. Some of you may have missed the 'fiction' word in science fiction.

The true nature of the 'demon' possessing that bloke was never discussed. It may have thought it was a demon, or could have been an alien that read the bible, was trapped on earth and was hoaxing folks. As for being tied to Earth, sure, there could be another reason for that, maybe some extra dimensional beings rooted to Earth somehow, who cares? BTW, all of the demon's tricks (including mind reading, changing smells and fire around the station could have been explained by something else, the Priest was right to be suspicious. There is a naff TNG episode about this...)

You cannot have everything explained to you in life in such exact terms in order to enjoy it, or you will not get very far. Those that quibble on this really missed the point, IMHO.

What is important here is what the characters themselves belived about the situation, how it affected and tested the personal faith of Lockley and the Priest. Faith has always been a key element in the B5 mythos. This story handled it very well.

I've just finished reading Dan Simmon's Hyperion quartet, which tackles faith and Christianity in science fiction. This had a nice echo of some of his arguments.

It reminded me of the S2 story where the very demonic servant of the shadows possessed Murdoch from the A-Team. No one had a problem with that instance, which until the very last line from G'Kar could have been an equally 'super-natural' story.

Re: Legend. Boy, I think you really missed the point about the second story here.

Let me start with 'that one evil kid'. He was a teenager who was the son of Cartagia and people were out to kill him. He would obviously be a bit jittery and have some issues. Well written and acted, IMHO.

Sherridan killing him without giving him a chance to redeem himself (or even actually do something more evil than just mouthing off, the lad never did anything wrong) would be totally out of character, as would Sherridan killing him just based upon what Galen showed him. Sherridan would want to see real evidence for himself, that is integral to his character. It is also why he chose to 'adopt' him and keep him close, and obviously what Galen intended all along.

For me, it really was the best B5 since season 5 ended, Crusade included. I've watched it 3 times and will do so again when I finally get the R2 disk.

I laughed a lot. There were funny lines, but humour is a subjective thing. If you did not find it amusing, fair enough, but it is something I will deny, despite what you say.

Legend, you and I obviously have very different ideas about what a 'babi' is. For me, it was always more than effects and action (although i like that as well) and about characters I love dealing with new situations in ways true to them.
I fear you have made the classic critics' error of dissing something for not containing what you wanted it to rather than commenting on the merits (or lack thereof) of its actual content.

 

[vacantlook]

BTW, all of the demon's tricks (including mind reading, changing smells and fire around the station could have been explained by something else, the Priest was right to be suspicious. There is a naff TNG episode about this...)

"Devil's Due"; it was rerun on Spike yesterday.

 

[KoshN]

It reminded me of the S2 story where the very demonic servant of the shadows possessed Murdoch from the A-Team. No one had a problem with that instance, which until the very last line from G'Kar could have been an equally 'super-natural' story.

He wasn't possessed or about to be possessed. He was being toyed with before being eaten. Yes, I know he didn't actually get eaten.

 

[legend]

Ok, ok. I hear what you all are saying about this possession. But, there were still many non-ambigious references to the devil and God, despite this possession possibly not being religious at all. The story was too preachy for me; very speculative. It was just non-stop, with no breather in between religious discussions. It just annoyed me personally and my girlfriend as well who is a non-practicing Jew. Nothing seemed that ambigous nor did anything really be left up to the viewer to decide for themselves. It appeared very matter-of-fact. Some of you have mentioned not to take it for face value and look deeper but the straight foward dialogue made that hard to do. It just turned me off. That's all. And I know others have said similar things, but I just needed to get this off my chest.

And I believe it WAS that one line that stated "scientists have concluded that there has to be some kind of "intelligence" "that really set me off and was the last straw for my patience for this plot. I don't remember the exact line but it's was pretty much that. You can say what you want but when you bring my scientists into this, and put words like this into their mouths, that's where I draw the line. And that's why I got so upset.

Again, the Sheridan story was better but just seemed very anti-climatic with the warm and fuzzy ending. I still stand behind my previous comments on killing the kid. Just because its a kid should not mean anything. If this kid was trully evil and was intent on killing billions then maybe the galaxy would better off without someone like that. I could use Stalen or Hitler as reference here but then I'm sure people would say that if someone showed them some love when they were a kid, then maybe they would'nt have done what they did. But sometimes you just can't change people and nature shows us that every day.

And looking at his father who was clinically insane, chances are there was little hope for this kid. And I do not believe it would not have been that out of character for John to perform this dark task. For God sake, if you remember how he hijacked a ship and put lives at risk in "Call to Arms" based on Galens's premontion and about as much evidence as he had here.

I know I'm in the minority here seeing as how most of you liked it while the rest were ok with it, but I just saw nothing that resembled the kind of entertainment that the series or any of the other movies provided . It was not thought-provoking nor visually engaging (except for Sheridan in the Star Fury-that was sweet). But they did'nt even really show the celebration at all in the end which seemed to have been lead up to. I just saw too many problems and I usually don't pick apart movies and just appreciate what the had to offer. But again for me, this did'nt offer up too much so I had no choice than to be overly critical. I waited so long for this; you should have seen my eyes when it showed up on my door step. And I don't even think that my expectations were too high cause I had be reading what you've all been saying, so I was prepared for a mediocre movie. Do you really feel this movie comes even close to the kind of quality story that "In the Begining" gave us? But whatever, life goes on and hopefully they'll be many more TLT movies that show off what JMS can really do with creative dialogue, funny characters and with hopefully a few action sequences thrown in (in space or not).