B5:TLT - Show Discussion Thread (Spoilers)

[Jan]

It doesn't matter if he is younger than he was on the show, it's still G'Kar and it would still be putting someone other than Andreas into the roll. It won't happen as Andreas meant too much to jms to replace him period.

Exactly. At Heroes Con last year, JMS said straight out that the role will never be recast and we won't see G'Kar again, even in books. "He's just gone." JMS said, and choked up while saying it.

Jan

 

[AnlaShokGrey]

It doesn't matter if he is younger than he was on the show, it's still G'Kar and it would still be putting someone other than Andreas into the roll. It won't happen as Andreas meant too much to jms to replace him period.

Remember also that JMS said that G'Kar has "stopped talking to him." So for now, I suppose it is not going to happen -- not even a much younger (i.e. not Andreas's version of) G'Kar.

Amy

 

[KoshN]

Seeing B5 itself was fantastic, didn't it look great? But without people on board, C&C, the Zocalo, more cast... it felt like an empty shell. Like you'd peel back a wall and nothing would be there. A big charade. I never felt that with B5 the series. It always felt ALIVE.

Yeah, with B5 the series, it felt real, and I could completely suspend disbelief very easily. It just sucked you in, and you were in it until the credits ran.

I hope it leads to more... maybe JMS needs to get his mojo back and a bit more budget.

They need SETS, and that means money and time to build 'em.

Maybe he's not really capable/willing to do a big story in 70 minutes, because he's used to writing in seasons not minutes.

I think that's a big part of it, he's used to writing in seasons, episodes that are part of a larger, planned whole, not standalone short stories. He's also best after he's on a roll,

Just... I thought he could do better, that's all. With all this time away, there was nothing more...?

It's probably a case of too many irons in the fire, as well. Too much other stuff going on.

 

[AntonyF]

He never said it was going to be afull length story, he has maintained it would be little side stories. Also, the show has been off the map for so many years, nothing reamins of the original sets and so forth, so with the budget for one episode he couldn't possibly repopulate the universe. Look how the original series was done, one set per episode, which meant he didn't have money for "Big CGI". He couldn't afford the "Big CGI" episodes until he had sets already built from earlier episodes

Fair enough. But really, season one of B5 was kinda crappy in terms of production values. It shows, the sets are flimsy and the CGI poor (although pretty good for its time). I notice it when I start watching season one again... but soon forget.

I think that's becuase the actors lift it up. It's like theatre, the sets are secondary to the amazing actors that inhabit it. And I think that's what this story lacked, good actors. Sure Bruce and Peter are great, but there wasn't enough for them to "fill the stage" in terms of material. The supporting actors were just that. Lochley... while I like Scoggins, isn't enough to command the screen.

They need better material.. even if it's just two people sitting in a room talking, if the narrvative is interesting it will overcome the budget. Sadly it didn't.

 

[raw_bean]

You see, I disagree. Though there were very few of the great B5 cast in it, I maintain it has just about the best supporting cast of any B5 I can remember. They all impressed me very much (would love to see more Vintari in future discs), and I loved the dialogue JMS wrote for them.

In The Beginning was awesome, but remember that that needed barely any new sets, and there was lots of footage (CGI and otherwise) that was re-used from all over the series. That's why it managed to be so damned epic - it compressed together a great many of the most impressive scenes and shots from the series and spooled out one whole big strand of the 5 year arc all in one go. It's not really a repeatable phenomenon because of that.

 

[Skander]

Exactly. At Heroes Con last year, JMS said straight out that the role will never be recast and we won't see G'Kar again, even in books. "He's just gone." JMS said, and choked up while saying it.

Okay, Jan, this is the first I'd heard of this. I can understand it, in many ways Andreas' G'Kar was the heart and soul of the entire show.

And I think that's what this story lacked, good actors.

I somewhat disagree here. Scoggins has a limited range of acting but fits the character decently. Boxleightner was pretty much born to play Sheridan--that rugged, individualistic patriarch. I always thought he did best playing off various characters--gluing the scene together rather than carrying it or doing one on one. Peter Woodward as Galen has always annoyed me. He stresses the syllables of words and makes such a production of speaking the lines that I spend most of the scenes staring at his facial expressions as he speaks the words rather than listening to what's coming out. As an aside, no one does Technomage like Michael Ansara, NO one! I thought the supporting actors who played Vintari and Father Cassidy did pretty well actually. I liked the way Cassidy delivered his lines and Ventari was an interesting character written poorly. The fact that he showed everything Galen warned Sheridan a couple of minutes after the warning was lazy and unfortunate, but not the actors fault.

The question I have is why did we center the stories around brand new characters when there are minor characters from the show that could probably be fleshed out more: Lt Commander Corwin, Doctor Hobbes, and Rathenn. Or why didn't they hire more of the minor regulars to carry the episodes: Security Chief Zack Allan, Ambassador Vir, and Ranger Lennier. Was the asking price of these actors too high for the budget? I'm sure the characters named above would have had nice roles within the confines of the plots JMS wanted to tell--and it probably would've satiated fans like me more.

 

[Jan]

The question I have is why did we center the stories around brand new characters when there are minor characters from the show that could probably be fleshed out more: Lt Commander Corwin, Doctor Hobbes, and Rathenn. Or why didn't they hire more of the minor regulars to carry the episodes: Security Chief Zack Allan, Ambassador Vir, and Ranger Lennier. Was the asking price of these actors too high for the budget? I'm sure the characters named above would have had nice roles within the confines of the plots JMS wanted to tell--and it probably would've satiated fans like me more.

The budget may have been part of it, but you also have to keep in mind that Canadian law requires a certain percentage of the cast and crew to be Canadian. I don't know if that's applicable here but I suspect that it may have been. A budget that's about enough to buy two cheese sandwiches doesn't allow for many cast at all. Witness the lack of background actors.

Jan

 

[KoshN]

The budget may have been part of it, but you also have to keep in mind that Canadian law requires a certain percentage of the cast and crew to be Canadian. I don't know if that's applicable here but I suspect that it may have been. A budget that's about enough to buy two cheese sandwiches doesn't allow for many cast at all. Witness the lack of background actors.

Jan

For once, I WISH that WB would realize that it's in their own best interest to come out with a B5 showpiece instead of B5 held together with spit and baling wire.

 

[RMcD]

The budget may have been part of it, but you also have to keep in mind that Canadian law requires a certain percentage of the cast and crew to be Canadian.

I didn't know that. I'm rewatching BSG at the moment, and having a lot of fun playing 'guess which are the Canadians'..

 

[Skander]

edit: OK, the numbers chart I mentioned has just updated, and no TLT on that either. So the only thing we can really say I think is that it probably sold under under 20.000 units.

I looked up US DVD sales from www.the-numbers.com for week ending August 5, 2007 and Babylon 5:TLT which had been in release for 1 week in the U.S. was 16th on the list with 51,559 units sold. No where near the 5.1 million for "300"--crimony!!

The following week (ending Aug 12) was published on the site also but TLT didn't make the Top 30 listed -- definitely under 36,400 units sold. The DVDs released alongside B5 that did make the Top 30 seemed to suffer b/w 60-70% drop in sales that second week so speculatively, it might have sold ~18,000 units that second week.

<sigh> I hope its enough.

 

[Sindatur]

Anyone know a basic formula for what a movie needs to gross?

IE: If Budget was $1.5M, marketing s/b $.5M, so break even is $2M divided by ASP $15.99 = 125,079 units need to be sold (I realize many of my base figures may be wrong, just giving an example of what I mean so we can get some kind of target)

 

[A_M_Swallow]

Shops and distribution normally take half the cost of a product. With manufacturing costs allow 1/3 the price of the DVD as contributing to the filming costs.

 

[Apocalypse_Box]

JMS should never have written a tale that centered around Christianity (and I want to say religion, but "Day of the Dead" was too good) so heavily. From a writing standpoint, that's immediately wrong. Granted, the theme/motif/symbolism /any other literary element of religion is a big, successful part of Babylon 5, but it's too much of a risk to write about; and why write about it as a Lost Tale? It has been 6 years since LotR, so why comeback with a piece on religion?
The reason why this story fails is because of the premise. This is Babylon 5 The Lost Tales, and for all that time without a spoo's serving of Babylon 5 material, JMS writes this? Why?

Despite the shaky conception, I loved a lot of the 1st story. From the moment Colonel Lochley meets Father Collins, there's a palpable sense of eeriness, and this feeling comes to a head when Lochley asks Collins if he's qualified to perform an exorcism. The dialogue between these two is excellent throughout the story. JMS utilizes solid details to heighten the terror, namely the camera angles. Yes, the camera angles.

As we all know, JMS is a big fan of The Twilight Zone. One of that series most popular installment involved a man who finds refuge in Europe with a group of monks. Although he is physically sick, the man continues to hear a strange howling coming from a mysterious part of the building, and after constant pestering of the monks, he learns that this howling man is the Devil. The camera technique in that episode of the Twilight Zone is identical to JMS's own technique here. It's just an old parlor trick to disorient the viewer, and it works with several other small details to make this story effective.

After a stellar beginning, the story loses its fire. Lochley rushes through assumptions, essentially hand-holding the viewer to the resolution. She also manages to avoid any surprises, twists, or enticements along the way.

What kills me is that I believe two small things would have made this story supremely better.
1. Erase 'Father Collins' and replace with 'Brother Theo.' The Babylon 5 timeline would likely have Brother Theo pushing 60, which would enhance the story by giving it a more epic feel. A priest on his last quest sort of thing. Brother Theo is not only a fan favorite, but he's one of those secondary characters that are nowhere to be found in The Lost Tales.
2. More malevolence, specifically involving aliens. No one has seen how alien races react to something like this. It's a fucking possession -- pull out all the stops! I recall a shot of a few Minbari walking nearby Burke's cell, but now show the viewer how violently a member of the Minbari Religious Caste would react to such a being. (I'm thinking they shatter pieces of their bone crests off and gouge out their eyes with it, or something equally horrible.) As long as I don't have to witness another ill-choreographed bar fight in the Zocalo - of course, that would actually require a cast of more than ten people - then I wouldn't complain.

As for the second story, I found it to be predictable and cartoonish. Who in their right mind thinks Sheridan will condone the murder of Prince Vintari for a second? It was too easy for Sheridan made easier by Prince Vintari's youth. Furthermore, Prince Vintari is written too weakly to be effective; the darkest quality his character employs is angst. Sure, Galen compares the situation to killing Hitler at the cradle, but if Prince Vintari had been in 1930s Germany, he'd have gotten his ass kicked. Where are the sinister, deadly Centauri Youth that Peter David created in the Legions of Fire Trilogy? Instead, Prince Vintari comes across as a teenage Emperor Turhan.

Without the presence of Peter Woodward and what his character brings, the second story is complete garbage.

 

[GaribaldisHair]

Why would Brother Theo be pushing 60? I don't recall the show ever talking about how old he was, whilst Louis Turenne himself is now pushing 74 and has already suffered one stroke (thus, his inability to reprise his role as Draal).

According to IMDB, he has done nothing in TV or film since 1996.

 

[Apocalypse_Box]

60 is that ripe age that gives a priestly character an "Obi-Wan Kenobi" quality.
But seriously, 60 was just a ballpark figure.

 

[vacantlook]

JMS should never have written a tale that centered around Christianity (and I want to say religion, but "Day of the Dead" was too good) so heavily. From a writing standpoint, that's immediately wrong....

Why is it "immediately wrong"?

Granted, the theme/motif/symbolism /any other literary element of religion is a big, successful part of Babylon 5, but it's too much of a risk to write about; and why write about it as a Lost Tale?...

Because the idea of what would happen to religions in the wake of humanity's ascent to the stars is a topic that intrigues jms. And jms assumed B5 fans were mature enough to watch it and consider the subject matter in a way that wasn't "OMG it's a real live demon run away! Run away!"

...Father Collins....

Father Cassidy.

1. Erase 'Father Collins' and replace with 'Brother Theo.' The Babylon 5 timeline would likely have Brother Theo pushing 60, which would enhance the story by giving it a more epic feel. A priest on his last quest sort of thing. Brother Theo is not only a fan favorite, but he's one of those secondary characters that are nowhere to be found in The Lost Tales....

Then you miss the point of half of the story. Brother Theo was very strong in his faith. "Over Here" is a story about doubt, how that doubt grew within humanity's religions in the wake of humanity's becoming spacefarers, and how there is an unscrupulous being who is totally willing to manipulate a person's doubt in order to get what it wants. Father Cassidy's character was full of doubt, and that's what Asmodeus was using to try to get freed from its bounds. Brother Theo just wouldn't fit in that spot of a doubting believer.

...Instead, Prince Vintari comes across as a teenage Emperor Turhan....

Hardly.

[yawn]

 

[AnlaShokGrey]

Then you miss the point of half of the story. Brother Theo was very strong in his faith. "Over Here" is a story about doubt, how that doubt grew within humanity's religions in the wake of humanity's becoming spacefarers, and how there is an unscrupulous being who is totally willing to manipulate a person's doubt in order to get what it wants. Father Cassidy's character was full of doubt, and that's what Asmodeus was using to try to get freed from its bounds. Brother Theo just wouldn't fit in that spot of a doubting believer.

Well done, vacantlook. I was another one of those fans who wished that Brother Theo had been the story's priest -- I mentioned it someplace passingly, but also noted that I didn't know the status of Louis Turenne's health, so it may have been a moot point. But you make an excellent point that Brother Theo would not have been the right character in this case, as much as we were craving the sight of familiar faces.

Thus, I retract my wish.

 

[vacantlook]

Thus, I retract my wish.

No need to retract it, just modify it: it still would be good to see Brother Theo again if a spot could be found within a story that fits his character.

 

[Apocalypse_Box]

Why is it "immediately wrong"?
Because the idea of what would happen to religions in the wake of humanity's ascent to the stars is a topic that intrigues jms. And jms assumed B5 fans were mature enough to watch it and consider the subject matter in a way that wasn't "OMG it's a real live demon run away! Run away!"

Simply put: religion is a topic that is extremely controversial. Now, this can be good if you're Dan Brown, and your stories focus on the Church. It can, however, be bad when you're JMS, and your universe focus on a space station in the middle of nowhere that no one has written about in roughly five years.

I'm not saying religion should be skipped; JMS even writes about matters of faith extremely well. (See "And the Rock Cried out, 'No Hiding Place'" and "Passing through Gethsemane") Those tales work, but they work because they are one part religion one part secular. In the first story of The Lost Tales, it was two parts religion, causing the story to suffer.

The writing's underwhelming.

Father Cassidy.

Nice. My bad.

Then you miss the point of half of the story. Brother Theo was very strong in his faith. "Over Here" is a story about doubt, how that doubt grew within humanity's religions in the wake of humanity's becoming spacefarers, and how there is an unscrupulous being who is totally willing to manipulate a person's doubt in order to get what it wants. Father Cassidy's character was full of doubt, and that's what Asmodeus was using to try to get freed from its bounds. Brother Theo just wouldn't fit in that spot of a doubting believer.

. . . until all of the disbelief Brother Theo buried within his faith awakens upon his meeting with a possessed soul.
That's perfect. If Burke's written evil enough, even Brother Theo's faith would falter. Now imagine how flawless that could be executed. How can this even be argued; it provides a seamless ending to a character that inexplicably disappeared.

Hardly.

Prince Vintari's speech concerning a lack of surprise in his pre-planned life mirrors the feelings of Emperor Turhan. In no way was Prince Vintari as malicious as the story required, so by the end, Sheridan wanted him to act as a big brother for David. I'm insulted by Galen's comparison between Hitler and Vintari -- fucking Vintari was a boy with a predilection for Starfuries, whereas Hitler killed countless. I'm not even German, and I'm insulted. Prince Vintari wasn't evil. He was just emo. Although that can, in rare cases, be the same, it's not here.

 

[Sindatur]

Like many others you are stopping at the idea that Asmodeus really was a "Bible demon" and not seeing the story left open the idea (and in my eyes leaned more towards) the fact that Asmodeus was simply an alien using the mythology of God (remember since this is B5, God speaking to the Prophets could be nothing more than Vorlons shaping our religon and bible) that perhaps was bound to Earth by Vorlons. I say the story leans more towards Asmodeus and God simply being aliens because Lochley is the one who outsmarted the "demon", it didn't take the Priest to do so. Also regarding Brother Theo, he's just a Monk, Monks don't perform excorcisms, do they? So, he wouldn't have worked regardless where the strength of his faith lies.

I doubt Hitler was gassing Jews at Vintari's age either. The story didn't suggest to me that Vitari is evil now, it suggested to me that the absolute power of being the Emperor of Centauri Prime (and having power mongers around him in his court) would corrupt Vintari into being jsut as evil as his father Cartagia was.