B5:TLT - Show Discussion Thread (Spoilers)

[vacantlook]

I'm not saying religion should be skipped; JMS even writes about matters of faith extremely well. (See "And the Rock Cried out, 'No Hiding Place'" and "Passing through Gethsemane") Those tales work, but they work because they are one part religion one part secular. In the first story of The Lost Tales, it was two parts religion, causing the story to suffer.

In other words, you don't mind a story involving religion in B5 as long as its inclusion is limited. Let a story be actually about religion in the B5 universe and how the infinity of space and the presence of manipulative aliens impact religion, and then you have a problem with it.

. . . until all of the disbelief Brother Theo buried within his faith awakens upon his meeting with a possessed soul.
That's perfect. If Burke's written evil enough, even Brother Theo's faith would falter. Now imagine how flawless that could be executed. How can this even be argued; it provides a seamless ending to a character that inexplicably disappeared.

And ending to a character that appeared in, what, two episodes out of 110? As fun as Brother Theo was, he's hardly a minor player in the B5 universe, let alone a major one. He no more "inexplicably" disappeared than any of the other limited appearance characters. It's not like Theo was Bester or someone of that level of significance to the show.

Prince Vintari's speech concerning a lack of surprise in his pre-planned life mirrors the feelings of Emperor Turhan....

Similar to, but not mirrors. Turhan was annoyed and saddened by it, but he wouldn't have desired to send fleets of ship to blow worlds apart out of being tired of having life sculpted and scripted for him.

Vintari was angry. He was surrounded by people who ridiculed and degraded him. We've seen in our society many times how such people can fall down a path that leads to them converting that anger into destruction and death. And yet, when it happens, people sit around acting surprised and saying it came out of nowhere. But it doesn't, and here we are shown an example of where it can come from: someone who could be a decent and good person who's mind just cannot handle endless ridicule and degradation from those that surround him. That's what made Vintari dangerous, and it is in recognizing that Vintari wasn't beyond a point of no return that makes Sheridan wise.

 

[Jan]

The story didn't suggest to me that Vitari is evil now, it suggested to me that the absolute power of being the Emperor of Centauri Prime (and having power mongers around him in his court) would corrupt Vintari into being jsut as evil as his father Cartagia was.

Exactly. The whole point was that Vintari wasn't evil yet but would turn out that way if there wasn't intervention. The story made it clear that Vintari was already beginning to dream of restoring the Centauri Republic and squashing its' enemies. But we saw the young man that still existed behind all the trappings. The fact that he was so willing to confide in Sheridan and so enthusiastic about the starfury ride was indicative that he was starved for somebody to pay attention to him but he was also wary and expected to be rejected as indicated when he thought that Sheridan didn't like him and said so in the docking bay.

Jan

 

[Shabaz]

Then you miss the point of half of the story. Brother Theo was very strong in his faith. "Over Here" is a story about doubt, how that doubt grew within humanity's religions in the wake of humanity's becoming spacefarers, and how there is an unscrupulous being who is totally willing to manipulate a person's doubt in order to get what it wants. Father Cassidy's character was full of doubt, and that's what Asmodeus was using to try to get freed from its bounds. Brother Theo just wouldn't fit in that spot of a doubting believer.

I also liked the way you put this. And in addition, one of the Babylon Podcasters mentioned how he really liked that Father Cassidy didn't go to the other side, destroyed by doubts about his faith in an instant, and instead approaches it in a very measured way.

As I've said on the newsgroup, if you really take the story as meaning that the religious elements are absolutely real now in the B5 universe, you're forgetting that almost all of said religious context in the story came from a being that was without a doubt highly manipulative, and that we saw using religion for his own ends. There is plenty of ambiguity and open questions in that story, and it is as much about the place of the cultural phenomenon of religious faith and supernatural beliefs, which exist whether you share said faith or not, in a future spacefaring society. I didn't think the story was perfect, but I've seen some people say the story was intended as a sermon, and that JMS had removed ambiguity in favor of the Christian pantheon, and I really don't think he did that.

As an atheist JMS acknowledges that religion is part of the human condition now and probably will be in the future, and as a fellow atheist I agree with that. And I think that approach was still at the base of Over Here. It might actually be that Asmodeus is manipulating not just Lochley and Cassidy, but also the audience, into thinking things are more clear cut in the B5 universe than they really are.

 

[LondosHair]

I've reserved my comments on TLT for two reasons:

1) I'm a lazy bastard and don't type nearly as much as I used to, and
2)




Anyway, I have many of the same grumblings as other people. Budget was too low, needed more extras, nicer sets, etc. ... But I'm OK with all that now. I realize this was a way to "test the waters" and see if new B5 would sell well. JMS has alluded to future releases (if this one sells well) and his hopes to bring names like Manny Coto, Mike Vejar, or Jesus Trevino back into the fray. So, OK, I'm cool with the lower-than-normal budget. The CGI was fantastic and didn't stray from the original CGI's look and feel, while still providing a more detailed, cleaner "updated" look.

I didn't know Christopher Franke would be doing the music, but I recognized his genius within the first couple measures of the intro. Some artists might be put off by that kind of recognizability, but Chris Franke and B5 go together like peas and carrots.

The tributes (in both the script and the DVD extras) to G'Kar and Franklin (and the men who played them) were touching and much appreciated.

What happened to the old doorbell and door-opening sound effects? They were sorely lacking. The first time I saw Lochley approach a door, I heard myself go "doo-doo-doo-DOOT!" Then I shook my head, smacked myself, and then gasped when the sound(s) didn't come.

First Story
I had trouble feeling "pulled in" by this story. JMS has never placed this much emphasis on a religion storyline, both rhetorically and in spoken dialog. It's very obvious when an atheist writes a story centered on religion. It invariably features a conflict of faith and a Catholic clergyman of some kind. To paraphrase a little Shakespeare, it's a fury of words, signifying only the fact that JMS has a good grasp of literal scripture and dogma, but very little concept of the personal Christian relationship with God.

I always enjoy watching Alan Scarfe. When I was a kid, it always seemed like he was playing a villain. Lately, he's been playing much friendlier types. I think it's the beard.

Tracy Scoggins takes a lot of flack for her portrayal of Lochley, most of which I think is undeserved. I think she brings the authority to her character that would be required of a person in Lochley's position. She's not an outwardly affectionate or passionate person, as we'd expect someone with her good looks to be. Definitely very military, analytical but fair, and calm under fire. I enjoed seeing her back in the blues again.

The fella who played the villain did a fantastic job -- the vocal effects got a little old, though, because he has the kind of voice that didn't need them. Fantastic CGI scene with the burning walls, etc. ... Gotta admit that one opened my eyes a bit.

All in all, it was a little like watching an interrogation scene on <insert cop show name here>, with a lot of dialogue, a dash of psychology, and a sci-fi ending. Not bad for a lead-in story, since I knew what was coming after it.

Second Story
I've come to the conclusion that any future B5 ventures into the DVD market should feature a healthy dose of Galen, no matter who else is in them. The man is beyond cool.

The interior shot of the docking bay on B5 was exactly how I always envisioned it. Would have appreciated some more angles, but, the budget... the budget... okay.

JMS did an excellent job of setting up the suspense in this one. Will Sheridan off the kid or not? It had me guessing/second-guessing right up until he recalled what Galen said about "ways to avoid this." Well done.

It was great to see Teryl Rothery again. I'm a big Stargate fan, and Teryl had one of the greatest and most noble deaths I've ever seen on TV. It was sudden, visceral, and quite unexpected. Quite a different kind of fate from that of Londo or G'Kar, but we knew those were going to happen long before they actually did. Her portrayal of the seedy reporter was convincing, and it's always fun to see JMS take out some frustrations on the media.

This story "felt" more like B5 to me (something I notice a lot of other people felt too)... and it wasn't just because of Galen, Sheridan, or the ol' spinning metal tube in space herself. Actually, it was the combination of all of those... and the music, and the Starfuries, and the moral conflict between the main characters.

Overall, I'm not disappointed. I knew the budget was low going in, so I can't cry about that. Besides, after almost 15 years, a low budget is something to be expected when someone says "there's new B5 coming." I'm looking forward to more DVD releases in the future, hopefully with higher budgets and even more familiar faces. There's well over a million years to play in. Personally I'd love a Telepath War miniseries or a Crusade miniseries (but good luck getting Daniel Dae Kim now that he's making a pile of money on LOST! )

 

[Bester]

Let a story be actually about religion in the B5 universe and how the infinity of space and the presence of manipulative aliens impact religion, and then you have a problem with it.

What are you referring to here? TLT had no "manipulative aliens". If it did, I wouldn't have half the problems with it as I do. The problem is the lack of such a (possible) explanation within the first story.

 

[Jan]

To paraphrase a little Shakespeare, it's a fury of words, signifying only the fact that JMS has a good grasp of literal scripture and dogma, but very little concept of the personal Christian relationship with God.

You mean beside the fact that he was raised Catholic and was involved with the Jesus movement in his youth? I'd say he's equipped to have a pretty good idea of what Christians consider their relationship with god. Just because he's an atheist now doesn't mean he always has been.

What are you referring to here? TLT had no "manipulative aliens". If it did, I wouldn't have half the problems with it as I do. The problem is the lack of such a (possible) explanation within the first story.

It didn't? Then you accept that the 'demon' was exactly what he appeared and not playing to an audience who were primed to believe in what he was presenting due to their own beliefs? I don't need to be spoon-fed contrary dialogue when I'm already familiar with the fact that nothing and no one on B5 is exactly what he appears.

Jan

 

[Bester]

It didn't? Then you accept that the 'demon' was exactly what he appeared and not playing to an audience who were primed to believe in what he was presenting due to their own beliefs? I don't need to be spoon-fed contrary dialogue when I'm already familiar with the fact that nothing and no one on B5 is exactly what he appears.

Jan

Of course, the demon could also be a time-travelling donkey from the year 25,000,124. But rather than speculate on the infitinite possibilities not mentioned during the story, I'd rather speculate on what was presented in the story.

 

[Bester]

A 'demon' in the religious sense is the only logical explanation for the entity based on the information provided in the story.

Can anyone provide an alternative explanation as to why it needed a man of God to release it from Burke's body?

 

[RMcD]

A 'demon' in the religious sense is the only logical explanation for the entity based on the information provided in the story.

Can anyone provide an alternative explanation as to why it needed a man of God to release it from Burke's body?

If it had been an episode of the new Doctor Who, there would have been some semi-convincing technobabble reason for it having to be a man of God. Come to think of it, didn't the literal devil show up in an episode of that last year? Maybe JMS is a fan.

 

[Sindatur]

A 'demon' in the religious sense is the only logical explanation for the entity based on the information provided in the story.

Can anyone provide an alternative explanation as to why it needed a man of God to release it from Burke's body?

Asmodeus didn't tell Lochley to bring in a Priest, Lochley decided that on her own, and it was she who outsmarted Asmodeus and figured it out. We have no proof that a Priest had to be the one to unbind it, only that Lochley called in one to do an excorcism. As I mentioned earlier, perhaps in the B5 universe, Vorlons came to the Prophets and gave them the stuff in the bible credited to God, and perhaps the excorcism rite was created by the Vorlons (ala the Technomages 7 words to make you love forever) as a vocal key to unbind the aliens who took on the guise of demons in the "God Mythology" the Vorlons created?

 

[Sindatur]

If it had been an episode of the new Doctor Who, there would have been some semi-convincing technobabble reason for it having to be a man of God. Come to think of it, didn't the literal devil show up in an episode of that last year? Maybe JMS is a fan.

It was left open ended in the end wether it was the actual devil or not, but, again, it also left the possibility that the actual devil wasn't really of a divine nature.

 

[vacantlook]

What are you referring to here? TLT had no "manipulative aliens". If it did, I wouldn't have half the problems with it as I do. The problem is the lack of such a (possible) explanation within the first story.

Asmodeus. The explanation is there, it's not blatantly spelled out for you.

A 'demon' in the religious sense is the only logical explanation for the entity based on the information provided in the story.

It's more logical, given what we know about the universe of Babylon 5, to understand that Asmodeus was an alien entity. We know aliens don't have a problem manipulating lesser races through their religions, see the Vorlons posing as angels/G'Lan/Valeria/etc. We know aliens can implant themselves in humans: see Vorlons, the creature that jumped inside Sheridan and drove him to go to the timerift where it jumped out of him and went into the rift. It makes plenty of logical sense to see Asmodeus is much similar. The problem is Asmodeus isn't spoon-fed to you.

Can anyone provide an alternative explanation as to why it needed a man of God to release it from Burke's body?

I have posted in the past an explanation that it's not a man of God that's needed, but a specific use of Asmodeus's name, which is something that Asmodeus did allude to: "names have power". It's just Asmodeus manipulated Lochley into getting a priest to perform an exorcism because that's the easiest way Asmodeus could get someone to use its name and break the bonds of possession that were holding it within Simon's body by causing Simon's brain to neurally process the sound of the name being spoken and that that disrupts whatever physiological processes that occur in his brain that enable Asmodeus to exist there.

Plus, Asmodeus enjoyed the way he could screw around with a priest in the process. It was a bit of an egotrip for him.

 

[Triple F]

Haven’t seen it yet so don’t know the context of the conversation where Asmodeus says that "names have power". But reading that phrase reminded me of something. At the start of season 4 when Sheridan’s down that hole having a chat with Lorien, did he not use the same line when Sheridan asked his name, and went on to say something like if I give you my name then I’m at a disadvantage, or something like that.

There’s a possible hint of a link between Asmodeus and the ancients, though I could be wrong.

 

[vacantlook]

Haven’t seen it yet so don’t know the context of the conversation where Asmodeus says that "names have power". But reading that phrase reminded me of something. At the start of season 4 when Sheridan’s down that hole having a chat with Lorien, did he not use the same line when Sheridan asked his name, and went on to say something like if I give you my name then I’m at a disadvantage, or something like that.

There’s a possible hint of a link between Asmodeus and the ancients, though I could be wrong.

Upon reading your post, I watched the part you reference in "Whatever Happened To Mr Garibaldi?" and have transcribed what Lorien says:

"I see that you're still upset that I won't tell you my name, but what does it matter? If I tell you that my name is Lorien, what good is that? It tells you nothing, but leaves me at a disadvantage. Words have meaning, and names have power. The universe began with a word, you know. But which came first: the word or the thought behind the word. You can't create language without thought, and you can't conceive a thought without language. So, which created the other, and thus created the universe?"

Excellent point to add to this discussion, Number6. Thanks for remembering and posting it!

 

[Triple F]

Thought it might be useful. Then again, its not the first time that the importance of names has been hinted at with respect to the first ones/ancients.

There’s all that “who are you” and “do you know who I am” stuff, though I’m sure that’s more phlisophically based rather than literal. Though . . . . .

. . . Again based on a rough memory, but when Ivanova was plugged into the great machine in the search for the first ones she comes across Sigma 957 where she encounters “The Enemy” (shadows), at which point she mentions “They know my name”, as if it can be used against her somehow - possibly capture or imprisonment.

So it is a concept/idea/theme which jms has obviously played with at least a couple of times in the series itself, so accepting that he may have done it again in TLT doesn’t seem quite so big a “leap of faith”. Sorry couldn’t resist the pun there. Afterall like, many have said, this disc seems to have been made for the fans of the series, so he might have been expecting some to get the link.

 

[Sindatur]

Thanks Number6, great connections you point out, I didn't even catch the connection.

Also, in other stories the idea of a name having power, typically are not connected to "the Devil"

 

[AnlaShokGrey]

Haven’t seen it yet so don’t know the context of the conversation where Asmodeus says that "names have power". But reading that phrase reminded me of something. At the start of season 4 when Sheridan’s down that hole having a chat with Lorien, did he not use the same line when Sheridan asked his name, and went on to say something like if I give you my name then I’m at a disadvantage, or something like that.

There’s a possible hint of a link between Asmodeus and the ancients, though I could be wrong.

I don't think so. "Names have power" is such a known concept, that the first time I watched the disc, I repeated the line along with Simon, even though I'd not seen the script and had no idea it was coming. But, that's the line you'd have to say there. It's not like JMS made up the concept, "names have power."

 

[RMcD]

. . . Again based on a rough memory, but when Ivanova was plugged into the great machine in the search for the first ones she comes across Sigma 957 where she encounters “The Enemy” (shadows), at which point she mentions “They know my name”, as if it can be used against her somehow - possibly capture or imprisonment.

I think the "it knows my name" thing is a standard horror cliche. Based on a quick google search it seems to be a memorable quote from the Haunting (1963 version), but it might have been around longer than that.

As a further example of names having power in the B5 universe, think of how Sinclair appeals to the personality matrix of the Ikaaran war machine in Infection by invoking its name..

 

[Triple F]

Thanks Number6, great connections you point out, I didn't even catch the connection.

Also, in other stories the idea of a name having power, typically are not connected to "the Devil"

Your right. But this time it was, or could have been (still not seen it). I don’t see what’s wrong with that. Leaving it down to the individual viewer to fill in the gaps based on their own experience or beliefs. I thought that sort of thought (and discussion) provoking style was supposed to be the sign of good writing.

I don't think so. "Names have power" is such a known concept, that the first time I watched the disc, I repeated the line along with Simon, even though I'd not seen the script and had no idea it was coming. But, that's the line you'd have to say there. It's not like JMS made up the concept, "names have power."

Fair enough, but I do think so (based on what I’ve read here).

Secondly, I never said or implied that jms did invent it (why say such an obvious thing). I said , So it is a concept/idea/theme which jms has obviously played with at least a couple of times in the series itself. And has used the exact same phrase in the context of Lorien, “Supposedly” the first of the first ones.

There’s a lot of wriggling around on hooks or dancing on pins that appears to exist in threads like this, with the ultimate get out clause of “I don’t think so” when confronted with evidence or actual examples that you don’t agree with, followed by whatever (personal view) as a reason. Though saying that it’s such a well known concept that it HAD to be the line used and end it on that seems a bit, I don’t know . . . . . . a bit limited in a debating context.

I think the "it knows my name" thing is a standard horror cliche. Based on a quick google search it seems to be a memorable quote from the Haunting (1963 version), but it might have been around longer than that.

As a further example of names having power in the B5 universe, think of how Sinclair appeals to the personality matrix of the Ikaaran war machine in Infection by invoking its name..

So taking a standard cliché and doing something different with it that makes the viewer uncomfortable or better yet have to think is . . . . . a bad thing. Why?


I mentioned the examples used in the series to demonstrate that it’s a concept jms has used in the past and in respect to First One/Aliens/Ancients and is not something that came screaming out of left field. As it seemed the right thing to do as no one remembered him doing it. Don’t feel bad, I’ve watched the series a few times and have a good memory.

 

[RMcD]

So taking a standard cliché and doing something different with it that makes the viewer uncomfortable or better yet have to think is . . . . . a bad thing. Why?

I don't remember saying it was a bad thing..