B5:TLT - Show Discussion Thread (Spoilers)

[Bester]

I think she's a better actress than Ivanova.

That's a hell of a career change!

 

[GKarsEye]

Yes, Vintari is definitely Cartagia's son. It's not stated in the episode but JMS confirmed it at the New York Comic Con.

Jan

Thanks, Jan.

That's a hell of a career change!

D'oh!
Eh, you know what I mean.

 

[Recoil]

Are you sure it wasnt stated in the episode somewhere? I could swear that when I watched it, it somehow seemed very clear to me that he was Cartigia's son. I don't remember how or why, maybe it was just hinted at. I need to rewatch it to see...

 

[Chilli]

What is stated in the episode is that Vir killed Vintari's father. That seemed like a pretty clear indicator to me.

 

[Recoil]

Bingo. That was it. Thanks.

 

[Jan]

What is stated in the episode is that Vir killed Vintari's father. That seemed like a pretty clear indicator to me.

JMS said that he wanted it clear without actually naming Cartagia so the bits about 'my father made many enemies' and 'the Centaurum wanted to punish me for what my father did' as well as the 'rumors' that Vir killed his father are all signposts.

Jan

 

[Telepath]

Hello there,

ok I was finally able to watch TLT in good ol' Europe as well (released on 24th of August). I agree that the corridors felt empty and that budget constraints are visible, but I liked the two little stories, both of which expand the B5 universe (except for quantum space, which no one ever used, not even the Vorlons when sending out their planetkillers, hiding in pockets of hyperspace).

I've thunk up something about the first of the two stories, and I'd like to have it cross-checked. The demon says something about the hand, if I remember correctly, and as we well know, the hand was even called "the hand of god" in tladis. And as we know as well, there are always two hands, equal and opposite (referred to in the show). so here we have the forces of darkness and the forces of light directly intertwined with the idea of God on earth, and the rebellion of Lucifer. As stated, the (dark) hand of God may be God's means of keeping his servant creatures subservient (acting out of fear of damnation, as Asmodeus suggests). But then, who is God in the B5 universe, especially given that JMS is an atheist and might make a point with that storyline? And, if Lorien was the first being to gain sentience in the galaxy, how can we have that ancient race called the hand which is even older --- except it came into being BEFORE creation of this universe, which will end when the sun goes nova (apocalypse)? The fall of Satan and the apocalypse were accounted for scientifically in that first episode - I think it is only logical that maybe some older creature (referred to as God) created the universe and the myth around itself with it. Pure speculation, but what do you think?

 

[GKarsEye]

Ah.

IIRC, Londo and Vir hid the fact that it was Vir who killed Cartagia.

 

[AnlaShokGrey]

True, but after all this time -- ten years or eleven or whatever it is -- it's not crazy to think that some small rumors about Vir have leaked out here and there. Stuff he's said while drunk, to women in his bed, etc. etc. Or one could even imagine Londo's keeper deciding it would be a good idea to cause Vir some trouble, and so perhaps it had Londo drop some charged hints to the right person in the royal court at one point or another.

 

[vacantlook]

...And, if Lorien was the first being to gain sentience in the galaxy, how can we have that ancient race called the hand which is even older....

What indication is there that The Hand is older than Lorien?

 

[Sindatur]

What indication is there that The Hand is older than Lorien?

Seemed like it was an extension of the theory. If the Hand is "The Hand of God" and God created the universe, the hand must therefore be older than Lorien. (Least that's how I took the post)

 

[Shabaz]

I'm not sure that's a conclusion you could really draw from the limited amount of information we get about the Hand in LotR. Though, to be honest, it's been a while since I watched it.

 

[vacantlook]

All we really know about The Hand is that one of their snivvling servants thinks they're the biggest thing since sliced bread and that other servants didn't want the IA to figure out what was up with that portal to another dimension on that planet. That's it really.

 

[Chilli]

But we never got that, just a grown Harry Potter with a British accent. Meh.

How unusual

True, but after all this time -- ten years or eleven or whatever it is -- it's not crazy to think that some small rumors about Vir have leaked out here and there. Stuff he's said while drunk, to women in his bed, etc. etc. Or one could even imagine Londo's keeper deciding it would be a good idea to cause Vir some trouble, and so perhaps it had Londo drop some charged hints to the right person in the royal court at one point or another.

Also, there was a fairly wide circle of people involved with the general plot to kill Cartagia. As soon as anyone determined that Londo did not personally do it, Vir would become the most likely candidate, probably.

Also .. there might have been telepaths.

 

[Telepath]

Seemed like it was an extension of the theory. If the Hand is "The Hand of God" and God created the universe, the hand must therefore be older than Lorien. (Least that's how I took the post)

I think that the Hand and the legend of the first great force of darkness (tladis) fits nowhere into the whole shadow / first ones timeline. "The Shadows were old when even the first ones were young" etc. I'll have to rewatch tladis, I think when G'Kar refers about the ancient city they found, it becomes pretty clear that this is the oldest civilization in the galaxy. Plus, I think Lorien would know about the Hand and tell Sheridan if it was somehow within the normal evolutionary timeline within the universe and might pose a threat to humanity. Ah well, there's not much information yet. But I think there are not many ways to integrate the hand elegantly into the B5 universe.

 

[KoshN]

What is stated in the episode is that Vir killed Vintari's father. That seemed like a pretty clear indicator to me.

It's stated by Prince Vintari as a rumor, not as fact.

 

[Crusader]

I dont remember Vintari ever directly saying that Vir killed his father (rumour, fact or magic spell) lol

 

[vacantlook]

I dont remember Vintari ever directly saying that Vir killed his father (rumour, fact or magic spell) lol

The specific exchange in TLT is:

Vintari: The only one I don't have to worry about is that idiot Vir Cotto, who wouldn't be in line at all except the Centarum wanted to punish me for what my father did.

Sheridan: I've know Vir for a very long time. He's a good man.

Vintari: He murdered my father. At least, that's the rumor. So, he got what he wanted: second in line. No threat to me, but in time maybe, I might just be a threat to him.

There's enough wink-winking and nudge-nudging there for us as viewers of the series of B5, knowing all that's gone on in it, to understand that Vintari is Cartagia's son.

He obviously wasn't known about publicly for some time because when Londo was promoted to Prime Minister by the Centarum, it was stated that "Cartagia has no known heir". So, putting that together with what Vintari says about the Centarum putting Vir second in line to the throne, in Vintari's opinion, to punish him, the revelation that Cartagia had a son had to have come out sometime between Londo's ascension to Emperor and some period of time before the Centarum officiated Vir to be in line for the throne.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

The specific exchange in TLT is:

There's enough wink-winking and nudge-nudging there for us as viewers of the series of B5, knowing all that's gone on in it, to understand that Vintari is Cartagia's son.

Vintari may be illegitimate. Alternatively his mother the Empresses may have fled the court and hidden the boy until he was of age. Boy kings have a suspiciously high death rate.

 

[vacantlook]

Oh, I've always thought Vintari was probably born to some random woman Cartagia knocked in a night of debauchery.