B5:TLT - Show Discussion Thread (Spoilers)

[GKarsEye]

Oh, I've always thought Vintari was probably born to some random woman Cartagia knocked in a night of debauchery.

If the Centauri follow the same rules as most of our civilizations, which of course we have no reason to believe they must, except for the fact that everything else about their culture is so clearly modeled after the Roman Empire and medieval Europe, then a bastard child wouldn't be given a line in the succession without a fight.


I guess I must've missed or glazed over all that dialogue about Vir killing his father, or just blew it off or something.

 

[Galahad]

I thought that both episodes essentially reflected the same principle by using two totally different storylines.

In both stories, the "good guys" are faced with a dilemma that has two obvious outcomes... both with harsh consequences.

However both Lochley and Sheridan find a way to see beyond the obvious solutions to their respective dilemmas and choose a better path.

Galen seemed to be on a "god trip" with Sheridan. He set the wheels in motion for both choices... he was clearly testing Sheridan in a manner that sort of reminded me of the exchange between God and Abraham over Isaac.

It made me think in both cases about how in modern politics, leaders tend to take the more physical obvious actions... favouring a fast response instead of questioning motives or engaging with your apparent enemy in an attempt to divert all parties from taking foolish action.

 

[Lousy_Dodgers]

I thought that both episodes essentially reflected the same principle by using two totally different storylines.

In both stories, the "good guys" are faced with a dilemma that has two obvious outcomes... both with harsh consequences.

However both Lochley and Sheridan find a way to see beyond the obvious solutions to their respective dilemmas and choose a better path.

Galen seemed to be on a "god trip" with Sheridan. He set the wheels in motion for both choices... he was clearly testing Sheridan in a manner that sort of reminded me of the exchange between God and Abraham over Isaac.

It made me think in both cases about how in modern politics, leaders tend to take the more physical obvious actions... favouring a fast response instead of questioning motives or engaging with your apparent enemy in an attempt to divert all parties from taking foolish action.

Exactly. In watching the commentaries on a few B5 episodes, JMS constantly brings up the point that B5 is about choices, responsibility, and consequences. These particular episodes mirror the end of the Shadow War in that the characters reject the either/or alternatives offered to them.

 

[Galahad]

It was also nice to see a couple of Warlocks... albeit briefly and pretty much on the receiving end.

 

[puzzle]

I can't believe we're the only two talking about this, Bester! Where is everybody?

Waiting for surface mail from Canada to Europe, whatever mysterious routes it does take.

I'm however happy to announce its arrival. So I guess it came by ship across the Atlantic, instead of taking a train across Siberia. Whatever the case, it came cheap, and slipped by the customs office with success.

Doesn't Londo state during the course of the series proper that the position is heriditary?

Londo could likely figure out a few loopholes to put Vir into the line of succession. Formal adoption, etc.

To my recollection the background is, that in the beginning of the Centauri Republic, emperors were chosen by the Centaurum. When stagnation hit, it became a hereditary thing, though.

 

[puzzle]

A 'demon' in the religious sense is the only logical explanation for the entity based on the information provided in the story.

A prank-loving telepath or technomage could have pulled it off without a companion creature.

Chemical reactions, holographic fire, psychology backed by audiovisual tricks... if a technomage was at work, even machines would confirm: "it smells here" or "it is cold" - nevermind that other machines created the effect.

For a telepath, sensations like smell, cold, visions of fire, noises... would be nothing but thoughts and memories, possible to imagine and convey.

Machines a telepath likely couldn't confuse, but their operators more than a little: "you remember reading ten degrees Celsius".

Can anyone provide an alternative explanation as to why it needed a man of God to release it from Burke's body?

One alternative explanation is that it wasn't trapped.

The whole thing could have been a stunt to cause people to behave in certain ways... or even study how they would behave. Either for tangible profit... or the jollies of it.

 

[glamourweaver]

Ok, forgive me for not reading the whole thread yet; but here are my initial thoughts.


I enjoyed it greatly. The first story felt more like a real good episode of Outer Limits (exorcism in space) than Babylon 5 & I'll to a few in continuity problems I have with it. The second was once again entertaining, but I have a few beefs.

Story 1:

- No addressing of the PAINFULLY OBVIOUS first diagnosis the characters should come to in the B5 Universe: the "Possessed" is a powerful Telepath whose powers have just become active & damaged his sanity in the process.

- No addressing of the other issue that I'd have brought up immediately, but I'll forgive Lockley for not having done so since she was there during the Shadow War: the being in question is an old one bound by the Vorlons

- The quarantine & near planatery extinction 5 years ago didn't help Church recruitment?




Story 2:

- How... precisely... did "Earth" stop the Centauri Republic before? Their only two crusades of Galactic Conquest since contact with Earth were stopped by Londo (who also started it), while the second (Drahk engineered one) was stopped by an ISA investigation (via primarily a Minbari Ranger) & a mass attack by the Narn & Drazi.

- Cartegia had no heirs! Londo said so! And we know he wasn't wrong, or else there would have at least been an ISSUE over him being next in line for the throne.

- No one but Londo & Vir know who killed Cartegia. The "rumors" should point to Londo as the assassin.

- I'm sorry... I realize it's just ISN being stupid... but Sheridan won the Shadow War on a White Star, not a Star Fury.

- Minbar has a "ROYAL PALACE"?!?!?!! I'm going to assume that Sheridan was speaking Centauri there to the Prince and that was the nearest translation for the ISA Headquarters & Presidential Residence.

- I kind of hate the references to his previous encounter with Galen considering that we don't know how that turned out precisely.... God I wish JMS would do B5 comics to finish the Crusades story archs he had planned & do the Telepath War.



The reference to G'Kar & Franklin together exploring Beyond the Rim made me tear up a little.

 

[vacantlook]

Story 1:

- No addressing of the PAINFULLY OBVIOUS first diagnosis the characters should come to in the B5 Universe: the "Possessed" is a powerful Telepath whose powers have just become active & damaged his sanity in the process.

- No addressing of the other issue that I'd have brought up immediately, but I'll forgive Lockley for not having done so since she was there during the Shadow War: the being in question is an old one bound by the Vorlons

- The quarantine & near planatery extinction 5 years ago didn't help Church recruitment?

Why do people seem to need to be shown Lochley saying, "Nope, not a telepath" in order to realize that she's discounted other possibilities off-screen and that it's all just not important to the story? I again come back to Sheridan's line in an episode of B5: "Ambassador, there are so many things in the universe that are, and so many things that aren't. If I were to take the time to deny all the things that aren't, we'd be here for centuries, wouldn't we."

The whole point of the story is Lochley's realization that Asmodeus wasn't "bound out among the stars" as he claimed, but actually bound to Earth as a prison. The story is not about all the things that Asmodeus isn't. It isn't even about what Asmodeus truly is, which is why we don't ever get an answer-on-a-platter as to his true nature. The story is about the arrival at understanding; it's about being confronted with what appears to be only two options, but realizing that the truth lies in the third if only one adjusts the way one is thinking.

- Cartegia had no heirs! Londo said so! And we know he wasn't wrong, or else there would have at least been an ISSUE over him being next in line for the throne.

You don't think Cartagia slutted around? Just because the Centarum didn't know at the time they appointed Londo to Prime Minister, and then on to Emperor, doesn't mean that a child of Cartagia didn't exist. It'd be so easy for Cartagia to just screw around with some miscellaneous Centauri woman who wouldn't have even known it was his if she went around with other men.

- No one but Londo & Vir know who killed Cartegia. The "rumors" should point to Londo as the assassin.

Except you don't know the source of the rumors or how they came to be promulgated. Until we do, we can't say they can't possibly point to Vir. There are quite a few people in the Centarum that knew about the assassination plot, and the Centauri are good at acquiring secrets.

 

[Galahad]

You don't think Cartagia slutted around? Just because the Centarum didn't know at the time they appointed Londo to Prime Minister, and then on to Emperor, doesn't mean that a child of Cartagia didn't exist. It'd be so easy for Cartagia to just screw around with some miscellaneous Centauri woman who wouldn't have even known it was his if she went around with other men.

Furthermore... i believe it wasn't Londo who initially said that... it was the Minister for Intelligence... who was part of the conspiracy and on Narn away from the facts. I'm not saying he was errant in what he said, but his intention was to achieve a political objective. It was politically important to make sure the man they believed would be most effective at restoring order to Centauri society - namely Londo, would be in an unopposed position.

The current British Royal Family are actually only in the position they hold today because basically we asked a member of the Dutch nobility if he wouldn't awfully mind invading us (without resistance) to help depose our politically inconvenient king. Basically we conveniently "forgot" who the rightful heir was, in order to achieve political stability.

Slightly different circumstances, entirely the same reason behind both... and similar outcomes.

The question is whether Londo or Vir will eventually have a Jacobite rebellion of their own on their hands.

 

[glamourweaver]

My biggest problem is still the "Earth stopped the Centauri before" thing....

 

[A_M_Swallow]

Sinclair flew Starfuries. Sheridan was a big ship man.

 

[RMcD]

My biggest problem is still the "Earth stopped the Centauri before" thing....

The Drakh attack Earth in A Call to Arms because humans are seen as having led the other races against the Shadows, even though Earth itself had nothing to do with defeating them and had in fact colluded with them. That seems no less tenuous.

 

[RMcD]

Sinclair flew Starfuries. Sheridan was a big ship man.

That contrivance to get him into a Starfury seemed a little strained - as if John McCain was elected President, then badgered by the press to fly to his inauguration in a Vietnam-era Skyhawk, and Prince Harry flew his wing because he once read a book about US jet planes..

 

[Jade Jaguar]

You don't think Cartagia slutted around?

We know he definitely liked getting head(s)...

 

[crazyhorse]

Well I've watched it twice now and I'll have to say that overall I enjoyed it,even the first story

I didn't think I was being battered by religion,just that a story was being told from the viewpoint of a priest and someone who was religious.As for the conclusion they arrived at we have no idea if it was right or wrong anyway.The whole Asmodeus thing rang false with me anyway as that was supposed to be a demon linked with lust.I think whatever it was was just playing with them both and enjoying it.

As for what is was I've no idea It could be anything from an evil Vorlon to a trapped Thirdspace alien or even what it appeared to be.I like it that you just don't know.

The second story was the weaker I thought,probably due to it being shorter

Not much to say about it really apart from it was obvious that Sheridan wouldn't just murder a young lad.What his personality was unpleasant,welcome to the World of teenagers

Loved the cgi in this episode although I did think they were rather stingy with it.Then again that's hardly surprising considering the budget.Speaking of which were the cgi scenes not filmed for Garibaldi's story before it was put on hold?Would that not free up cash for the next instalment?

It hasn't put me of watching anymore anyway

 

[Jan]

Speaking of which were the cgi scenes not filmed for Garibaldi's story before it was put on hold?Would that not free up cash for the next instalment?

No, no filming was done before the Garibaldi segment was put on hold. It was after JMS had his crew hired that he realized that three segments was too ambitious A) for the budget he had and B) for him as a not-very-experienced director. From what I can tell based on the copy of the script I've got, the two remaining segments were lengthened slightly and the money saved was spent on this disk rather than 'banked' for the next one (assuming it's greenlit).

Jan

 

[GaribaldisHair]

It wouldn't make any sense to spend part of a small budget for disc 1 banking scenes or CGI for a disc 2 that might never be made.

 

[Galahad]

It wouldn't make any sense to spend part of a small budget for disc 1 banking scenes or CGI for a disc 2 that might never be made.

Yes after all:

My dad always used to say, "If you're falling off a cliff, you may as try to fly. You have nothing to lose."

- Captain John Sheridan

Or equally poignantly:​

It's easy to fight when you've got a lot of ships to work with. The real crunch comes when you are down to almost nothing. Then you either play it safe and you probably lose it all or you take a

- Security Chief Michael Garibaldi

Sometimes, the only way you are going to be able to see the game out is to gab ytour chips and go all in. Rich skeptics like the studios will sit there and bid lightly until they see they are onto a winner... because with their resources they have that option. It's up to you with the little you have, to go out and make them play by winning every hand you can by throwing everything into the ring.​

​

 

[Jan]

Sometimes, the only way you are going to be able to see the game out is to gab ytour chips and go all in. Rich skeptics like the studios will sit there and bid lightly until they see they are onto a winner... because with their resources they have that option. It's up to you with the little you have, to go out and make them play by winning every hand you can by throwing everything into the ring.

No doubt you're correct in some instances but in this case we're talking real dollars and cents. In order for JMS to have spent money on the not-yet-commissioned second disk he'd have had to have *not* spent money on the first. And of all the many opinions I've heard about TLT "it's obvious that they had too much money in the budget" hasn't been one of them. The whole reason why the Garibaldi segment was pushed back was because JMS didn't think he could do justice to three stories with the money he was given and going over budget isn't an option in JMS's business model from everything we've seen in the past.

No, where I think the bold approach that you suggest is appropriate is when it comes to negotiating for the next one. Now JMS and Doug Netter have proven (yet again!) what they can do, it's time for them to say "Okay, you just made a gazzilion dollars from TLT I, we require a budget increase of ____ if you want us to make TLT II for you." which, from what JMS & Doug have said, is what they plan to do.

Jan

 

[Galahad]

Heh if only Jesus were a TV Exec:

"After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. The man who had received the five talents brought the other five. 'Master,' he said, 'you entrusted me with five talents. See, I have gained five more.'
"His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'

I know it's more than a little off topic but I just happened to be already thinking about the Parable of the Talents anyway and when I read your post, the similarity struck me.