Is JMS a Scientologist?

[GKarsEye]

After reading all that stuff GKE just posted...how can ANYONE take that "religion" seriously? Granted, people say that about the bible...but come on. DC-8 airplanes in space bringing people to Earth? What a crack-head...

Eh, it still ain't as bad as those folks that cut off their dicks and killed themselves to fly on a comet. Or Jonestown.

One of the hooks w/ Scientology is the near-deification of Hubbard. His cult of personality is one of the foundations of the church. Part of building up this cult is exaggerating or lying about his life. My favorite part is how they call him this great naval war hero, where in fact he was called "mediocre" or something like that by his commander during his very brief service. The church present him as this brilliant renaissance man who traveled the world and did all this research and made all these discoveries about the brain and so forth.

In this sense, Scientology has much in common w/ creationism, in that they take advantage of the laymans' ignorance of science to play on their prejudices and beliefs.

Simpsons fans may remember an episode in which the Simpsons and their friends join a cult. They're at the cult's camp because they were given a free weekend near a lake or smoething. The turning point was when they were shown a movie that spewed the cult's absurd beliefs over and over again. They were told they could leave any time they wanted, but when Lenny got up to leave, the room got quiet, a spotlight appeared on him, and a voice from the PA asked, "We were just wondering where you were going- not that you aren't free to leave..." etc and he just felt guilted into staying. Cut to hours and hours later, still watching the propoganda, and they're all brainwashed.

Though comical, it's a brilliant illustration of how brainwashing works.

Step 1: Hook people in with something seemingly innocent.
With the Simpsons, a free lakeside weekend. With Scientology, it's usually a "personality test." Our egos inspire us to take personality tests (witness the frequency of such things on these boards).

Step 2: Follow-up by playing on fears and weaknesses.
In the Simpsons, it was guilt. "We gave you a free weekend, the least you can do is watch this movie. In Scientology, the personality test will invariable conclude that there's something wrong with you, that your potential isn't unlocked, etc. Everyone has these fears and wants to be shown a way to improve. The Scientology invitiation will offer a free counciling session. It's presented as secular, scientific, and professional. At this point, the victim still doesn't even know it's Scientology, yet.

Step 3: Repetition.
As the sessions proceed with the e-meter and the Dianetics philosophy gets gently but insistently put upon a person, the same nonsense is repeated. It is really amazing how the human brain can buckle under insistent repetition, even if we don't realise it. Successful advertisers, politicians, business managers and religious/cult figures understand this most important aspect to their trade.

Step 4: Break with the outside world.
By the time the victim has embraced Dianetic/Scientology, they are encouraged to break associations with any influence outside the church.

So nobody will be presented with a whole explanation of Scientology like my earlier post and want to get into it. It's a slow, expensive process.

I am personally sympathetic because I went through steps 1-3 with another cult.

 

[GKarsEye]

Psychology and psychiatry are hardly exact sciences, either, though. At least up to the point I read, Dianetics didn't seem any worse to me than the latest self-help book.

Jan

Your mistake is equating psychiatry/psychology with self-help. Most self-help books have little basis in science, either. (I have written about The Secret here before).

It is also a mistake to equate psychology and psychiatry, because the latter focuses on brain chemistry and is thus closer to biology. That our emotions and mental health are related to the nueral chemistry of our brains is biological reality that scientology denies.

It is of course also true that children in American and probably the UK are over-medicated. But this does not invalidate the proper use of drugs, either. Over-medication is due to lazy doctors and profit-driven pharmaceutical companies, not the very study of psychiatry. The solution isn't to hook people up to an e-meter, but to remove the profit motive from the pharmaceutical industry.

 

[Recoil]

Dianetics has absolutely zero scientific basis.

Which is really ironic given the name of its religion is "Scientology"

 

[Jan]

Your mistake is equating psychiatry/psychology with self-help.

No, actually, I don't. See? it was two separate sentences. Nor do I equate psychology with psychiatry though your distinction of the focus of phsychiatry being on brain chemistry is useful.

And it's not just children who are overmedicated. I pretty much lost over a year of my life due to taking anti-depressants I never should have been prescribed in the first place. The problem with your brain chemistry being disordered is that you often can't even tell that something's wrong.

Jan

 

[GKarsEye]

Which is really ironic given the name of its religion is "Scientology"

There's also something called "Christian Science." As you can guess, it also has no science in it (and not much Christian, depending on one's point of view).


So I can accept viewing Dianetics as simply another self-help book, with the context of understanding that pretty much all self-help books are utter garbage (as are diet book, most exercise equipment, herbal supplements, and any other crap that is sold as a shortcut to mental or physical betterment).

The difference is that Dianetics is connected to a rich, large international church that actually claims religious exemption in this country (and is outlawed in a couple of European countries), has a lot of celebrity spokesmen and a sophisticated organisation that practices classic brainwashing techniques.

When The Secret gets its own church, we'll worry about that, too.

 

[Recoil]

When The Secret gets its own church, we'll worry about that, too.

Agreed.

 

[GaribaldisHair]

Imagine how popular it might have become if Battlefield Earth had been a decent movie ...

 

[puzzle]

Step 1: Hook people in with something seemingly innocent. With the Simpsons, a free lakeside weekend. With Scientology, it's usually a "personality test." Our egos inspire us to take personality tests (witness the frequency of such things on these boards).

Step 0: Pick a soft target. More often than not, cults hungry to spread and make a buck, focus their recruitment effort on people who have recently experienced a personal loss, or other emotional turmoil.

 

[Shabaz]

I've talked with one of their 'ministers' once, they had this big recruiting tent on the city square here one week. It was weird how fast he 'deduced' that I 1) had severe mental problems, 2) was under medication for this, 3) was taking this medication unneeded, and 4) could help me kick the medication and relieve me of all of my problems without them.

The only question he initially asked is if I used any medicines. The Dutch word he used was a fairly neutral, generic one, and since I did take some stuff to clear up my airways, I said yes. And then he started to spin the whole story above. And I kept replying with "really?", "are you sure?" with each new diagnosis, and he actually was utterly convinced based on just that small answer. Said he could see something in my face, and it was really clear to him I had all these problems (which I didn't). Eventually I asked him about all the weird stuff I heard about them, and he said he never heard of it, but he did sense anger in me now, which he also could help with. (I was pretty much the most demure, soft-spoken kid ever, so this was solely because I asked questions about them after his barrage about my person)

It was a weird experience for my 15 year old self. It actually bothered me for a bit, but I talked to my mom about it, who then told me she also had done one of these tests on a lark in their Amsterdam office when she was 25, and they pretty much told her the same thing.

 

[GKarsEye]

I've talked with one of their 'ministers' once, they had this big recruiting tent on the city square here one week. It was weird how fast he 'deduced' that I 1) had severe mental problems, 2) was under medication for this, 3) was taking this medication unneeded, and 4) could help me kick the medication and relieve me of all of my problems without them.

The only question he initially asked is if I used any medicines. The Dutch word he used was a fairly neutral, generic one, and since I did take some stuff to clear up my airways, I said yes. And then he started to spin the whole story above. And I kept replying with "really?", "are you sure?" with each new diagnosis, and he actually was utterly convinced based on just that small answer. Said he could see something in my face, and it was really clear to him I had all these problems (which I didn't). Eventually I asked him about all the weird stuff I heard about them, and he said he never heard of it, but he did sense anger in me now, which he also could help with. (I was pretty much the most demure, soft-spoken kid ever, so this was solely because I asked questions about them after his barrage about my person)

It was a weird experience for my 15 year old self. It actually bothered me for a bit, but I talked to my mom about it, who then told me she also had done one of these tests on a lark in their Amsterdam office when she was 25, and they pretty much told her the same thing.

This was in Holland? When? 'Cause IIRC, Scientology is illegel there.

 

[Chilli]

This was in Holland? When? 'Cause IIRC, Scientology is illegel there.

A quick google on this didn't turn anything up .. I actually found the postal address of the Scientology Church Netherlands.

 

[GaribaldisHair]

I thought it was just that it was not recognised as a bona fide religion (much the same as the rest of Europe) rather than it actually being banned. A similar situation exists here in the UK - the church of Scientology is not illegal or banned, they can do what they like, they are just not recognised as an official religion.

 

[Shabaz]

Nope, they aren't outlawed here. Far as I know they still have their big office somewhere around the area behind Dam Square in Amsterdam. You may be confusing us with our eastern neighbours, or some of the Scandinavian countries.

What you may have heard of in passing is a fairly high profile case here against Karin Spaink, who published some American court documents that the church said infringed on their copyrights, and then they basically continued to legally harass miss Spaink and her ISP, XS4ALL, for literally a decade. Several courts ruled that Spaink's right of free speech trumps their copyright, and that it did not allow them to behave in the way they had been. It eventually reached the Dutch Supreme Court, where the Church dropped the case. According to the defendants, a common tactic by the Church, trying to draw out court proceedings as much as possible, and then drop it when they're about to lose, to get the maximum harassment effect even for hopeless cases.

You can find some info here, though I'm afraid it's all in Dutch. It's an interesting case though, especially when you read the actual rulings. I mean, the judge cites Scientology documents stating things like this, which kind of makes my heckles stand up:

- De door Scientology c.s. niet weersproken Declaration van [L] (voormalig President van RTC) (productie 9 in kort geding van mr Bakker Schut) houdt onder meer in:
"(...)
22. The legal strategy of Scientology and the existence of numerous potential legal problems, some of which are set forth below, were known to me when I was a staff member in Scientology. Enemies of Scientology are deemed to be "suppressive persons" ("SPs"). One becomes a "suppressive person" by doing a suppressive act, such as suing Scientology as a litigant or lawyer. In the jargon of Scientology, when one is "declared" this means that one has been declared a "suppressive person" and, therefore, may be harassed, hurt, damaged or destroyed without regard to truth, honesty or legal rights. It is considered acceptable within Scientology to lie, cheat, steal and commit illegal acts in the name of dealing with a "suppressive person"
23. This practice or policy is sometimes referred to as the policy of "fair game".(…) The fair game policy was issued in the 1960s. It was never cancelled. A document was issued for public relations reasons that purportedly canceled "fair game"; however, that document stated that it did not change the manner of handling persons declared "SP"."

And the judge later talks about how he rules there is sufficient evidence to call the church an organization that is anti-democratic, and the primary purpose of their lawsuits to be that of exercising power over their own members, and preventing non members from discussing about them.

 

[Sindatur]

Ya know, I wonder if the higher ups really believe what they're doing, or if it's all in the name of "keeping the money flowing and the scam going"?

 

[GKarsEye]

Thanks for clearing that up, Shabaz. An interesting case indeed.

I'm also pretty sure it was recently outlawed in Germany.

Sindatur, I think that people that promote silly religions or any supernatural nonsense- psychics, channelers, et al- do actually believe, to some degree, what they're pedaling.

 

[Chilli]

Germany has not outlawed Scientology .. they have, however, classified it as a business, and classified its members as employees.

Which apparently makes it very difficult to be openly in Scientology AND hold a job, or something --> Scientologists are saying that they've effectively been made illegal.

Also, the government hands out warning brochures against them and the such. And has their intelligence services watching them for unconstitutional activity.

 

[Jan]

Also, the government hands out warning brochures against them and the such. And has their intelligence services watching them for unconstitutional activity.

Eww. Classifying them as a business makes sense but I'd be very wary of a government that actively works against any business or religion that way.

Jan

 

[Shabaz]

If you're willing to operate in the way they do, I see no problem in checking if they are at least upholding the law. I mean, if you see what lengths they're willing to go to fight those critical of them, and what they do to people who want to leave, I'd say it's warranted.

They keep secret a lot of what they do, and like the judge I cited above said, are quite willing to abuse the legal system, and otherwise harass and go to great lengths to keep these things secret. As the judge said, they work actively to prevent any discussion about them, and some of the methods they use are really bad and damaging. Certainly damaging financially, they work to isolate you socially, break contact with your family and friends, even society in general, and some of what they do is probably actively harmful mentally. Informing people of this anyway despite their wishes I think is a good thing.

While they try really hard to present themselves as just another religion, cults tend to operate on a very specific set of tricks and techniques (isolation, brainwashing, strong dependence on the cult, low independence) which are generally considered harmful for good reason, and often end up being both psychologically and financially exploitative. And the CoS seems to fit most of these qualifiers to a T. There is good reason to be careful about this, and tell others they should too. There is a world of difference between self help books, some of which can be rubbish science too, but usually their harm, if any, will be small and passive. And on the other hand having the active force of a full blown cult applied to you.

I can remember hearing an interview with a bunch of high ranking Dutch CoS members, who were excommunicated, and they personally still were totally into the odd self help side of things. But they said the same thing, that the church that practices these things, whether you believe it actually helps or not, is very abusive to its members, and works to make life hell to those who want to leave or be critical of them.

 

[Chilli]

Eww. Classifying them as a business makes sense but I'd be very wary of a government that actively works against any business or religion that way.

Jan

Depends. IIRC, the stuff they're monitoring is how Scientology a) stalks people b) discourages people from seeking medical treatment that they need. Both ARE unconstitutional in Germany.

 

[Jan]

Oddly enough, the part I disliked the most was

Also, the government hands out warning brochures against them

That is *not* a government function IMO.

Jan