Is JMS a Scientologist?

[Shabaz]

Oddly enough, the part I disliked the most was

That is *not* a government function IMO.

Jan

As long as they strive to be accurate, why not? Brochures seem pretty innocuous to me.

edit: I just read through one, and they actually state they're legally considered "an anti-constitutional movement with a criminogenic structure". Warning people against such an organisation with brochures seems about the most innocuous thing you can do, and warranted for an organization operating both against the rule of law, and the foundations of a democratic nation.

 

[Jan]

Guess I'm just not fond of the government, any government, trying to do my thinking for me. I dislike government taking the role of nanny. Either the organization is legal or it's not and if it's not there needs to be conclusive proof of what laws they've broken. Being in opposition to an established government isn't usually a crime in a democratic nation.

Jan

 

[Shabaz]

They're not trying to say what you should think, from what I can see, just trying to provide background information on an organization that has been found to operate against the law in the past, information that the organization tries to keep secret themselves. The Church actively works against people having the opportunity to get an informed opinion on them, and as some of the rulings in the Spaink case quite clearly state, they do so quite ruthlessly. They behave in ways actively harmful to their members, and then try to hide this. This can not be acceptable behaviour, can it? It's the CoS that tries to take away your choice of getting an informed opinion about them, not the German government.

Anyway, I found some of the brochures, but all in German. However, this document, while not a brochure, seems to contain a lot of the same background information on the German situation and their findings.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Guess I'm just not fond of the government, any government, trying to do my thinking for me.

99.999% of the time, I would agree with this. I guess I feel that warnings about Scientology are similar to the warnings they put on cigarette packs... perhaps not that effective, but you gotta try sumpthin'!

 

[hypatia]

Not to defend Scientology, but...

if this attitude were directed at most any other religion, would so many be taking it so calmly?

I might agree with what they're saying, but then does that mean I can wage my own propaganda war against, oh, Protestantism?

 

[Chilli]

Not to defend Scientology, but...

if this attitude were directed at most any other religion, would so many be taking it so calmly?

I might agree with what they're saying, but then does that mean I can wage my own propaganda war against, oh, Protestantism?

Well .. Germany's recent hard stance on religiously extremist groups started after 9/11, and started with militant islam.

7 is Islamic extremism, 8 is Scientology.

A byproduct of 9/11 having been organised and planned on German soil, I believe - tolerance no longer includes turning a blind eye to cultist behaviour when it might actually harm people.

Extremist christian groups, such as Opus Dei, are also not treated too well in Germany, I believe.

 

[puzzle]

Neither am I fond of wasting taxpayers' money on printing brochures... but state does prohibit people from privately damaging their property, or privately harrassing them back.

Since it prohibits that, it might just as well demand their religious racket to pay taxes, and print some cautionary brochures for that money.

Taking money from those who seek to accumulate it, and saying a word of caution regarding those who use words to manipulate others, is an equal and balanced exchange.

 

[crazyhorse]

I find the views expressed here over Scientology both rather amusing and disturbing at the same time.

Amusing because I think they are a bunch of bawbags.

Disturbing because of what people want to class as a religion.

You want to take the piss out of Scientologists beliefs because they are unbelievable then it's time you did the same with the rest of them.

I mean 5,000 people feed by a couple of loaves and a few fish and nobody said "please Sir,can I have some more".Nobody asked for pudding either.Give me a break.

As for unlawful practices,does the German state give out leaflets warning about giving the Catholic Church a wide berth because of it's history of child abuse and it's unlawful cover up of this ?

I'd sooner get pestered by a bunch of muppets than have one of my kids sexually abused and the organisation where it occured try and hide it to save face.

As for making money,religion has always been the biggest scam known to man,they all do it.

As far as I'm concerned no religion should be exempt from tax.If they cannot support themselves then tough luck,you're obviously not wanted enough.

As for Hubbards books I've only read Battlefield Earth (which I rate) and the Mission Earth series.I found his whole psycharity thing rather amusing.The fact that Americans tend to be shrink obssessed could have a major impact on his paranaoi.

They deserve the same respect as any other sect,be they Christian,Taoist,Muslim or any other group,no more,no less.

 

[puzzle]

They deserve the same respect as any other sect,be they Christian,Taoist,Muslim or any other group,no more,no less.

But deservingness is a result of behaviour.

Case in point: if I saw a Christian "converting" someone by lead and gunpowder (like the fashion was in old days - or with sword and fire, like the fashion was in even older days)... then I'd consider them to deserve the same right back.

If I saw a Muslim do it - same conclusion.
Any other stripe or color - same conclusion.
Including atheism, though it ain't a religion.

Now, if I were to see a Scientologist politely living in whatever way they're supposed to, but a Buddhist scamming and harrassing people...

...then naturally, I'd consider the polite person to deserve leaving alone, and the scammer / harrasser to deserve their goods returned to them.

And just like I reserve the right to say that Christianity has caused untold damage, Islam has caused untold damage, many sorts of pagan religions have caused great damage, Judaism has caused great damage, Hinduism has done so, and Buddhism too has been an excuse for wielding weapons... just like that, I reserve the right to say that Scientology has, until now (remarkably early in its history, for a religion) demonstrated all the qualities of a racket and scam. I have every reason to expect that, if given more influence, they'd do more damage.

Whether it's OK for a government to print leaflets about them... is a more interesting question. In my eyes, it's ethically fine (freedom of speech goes both ways), but probably not an efficient way. However, it is one way of dealing with the issue.

If a reasonable scientologist were to exist, they might be pretty embarrassed... but even without government-printed leaflets, I bet they'd be pretty embarrassed by their co-believers anyway.

 

[crazyhorse]

Define what you consider to be worthy of repect.

I pointed out a modern situation where the Catholic Church has hidden the rape of childeren to protect it's own interests.Are you denying that this is immoral and illegal?

As I said,should warnings not be given over all sects and their dangers?

FFS you would have thought the Germans learnt from their victimisation of the Jews,now they are doing it again.

Just because certain faiths have robbed us for a couple of thousand more years doesn't give them any more credence.They are essentially the same.

My own Big Hairy Balls Religion has as much validity as any other.

Once again I'll say the Universal Declaration of Human Rights says any person has the right to believe in any religion without prejudice.

I love it because it shows religion for the crackpot society it really is

 

[GaribaldisHair]

I pointed out a modern situation where the Catholic Church has hidden the rape of childeren to protect it's own interests.Are you denying that this is immoral and illegal?

And I could point out an incredible number of Christians known personally to me who have dedicated their lives to helping people in some of the most needy parts of the world ... not to "convert" people but to meet their physical needs.

Be that the highly paid GP who gave up a thriving practice to live and work among the poorest people in Kenya educating them about HIV infection, helping those already infected and affected by AIDS, including orphaned children.

Or the young man and his family who gave up everything and moved to Paraguay to work with the homeless, helping them to find somewhere to live and a job so that they can ultimately support themselves.

Or the newly trained lawyer, fresh from university with a bright, lucrative career ahead of him, who chose to leave that behind so that he could work with a South African project attempting to encourage young, violent men out of the gang and guns culture to become more productive members of a needy society.

Why did they all do those things ... because they believe that is God's call on their lives.

Tarring all religions, and all people of faith, with a brush called "thief" and "crackpot" is a massive, unfounded and ill-informed generalisation.

 

[raw_bean]

The big problem with discussions like this is that people are lumping Scientology together with religions in general and broadening the issue too much. I'm an atheist but don't care to get involved in debate about religion. But if you read the German government report that Shabaz posted (it's dry and difficult, I realise, but worth wading through), or other similar studies that can be found with a bit of research, you see that the religious aspect of Scientology is just one more facade they present both to attract members and to protect themselves.

The different public faces they offer are a religion to which people who find no value in mainstream religions can turn to for solace, 'therapists' who target the emotionally vulnerable for 'help' through 'auditing', and as a training organisation offering to help businesses improve their management practices and productivity. This combination allows them to respectively claim tax benefits as a religion (and declare intolerant persecution when they're spoken out about), blind the vulnerable and scientifically ignorant with pseudo-science, and keep their practices secret on the basis of them being trade secrets.

When you get right into what they are and what they do though, they're more like a production-focused, autocratic socio-political organisation that uses religion, phsychology and economics as tools to expand and recruit new members, who have their individuality supressed and are converted into tools for the purpose of recruiting more members, and so on. Their focus on the will and well-being of the organisation being paramount and completely superceding the rights of the individual is the point at which studies and reports on them declare them to be fundamentally oposed to democracy or unconstitutional, and the reason governments feel the need to do something about them. It's more akin to government warnings against fascist groups or paramilitary organisations (that report Shabaz posted accused the elite 'Sea Org' troubleshooting group Scientology uses of being paramilitary in nature) than it is a warning against joining a religion.

At the risk of undermining a serious issue with trivial comparison, what they are is not really a religion, but a real-world equivalent of the Borg.

 

[raw_bean]

FFS you would have thought the Germans learnt from their victimisation of the Jews,now they are doing it again.

This particular gem of ignorant mouthing off has me seeing red, by the way.

 

[Chilli]

This particular gem of ignorant mouthing off has me seeing red, by the way.

I'd probably be more incensed if I had the slightest clue what he was talking about...

 

[Chilli]

As for the issue at hand .. tolerance and respect depends on actions. While I respect people like GaribaldisHair has described, I do not respect zealot missionaries that keep stalking me and asking me to pray with them .. also if the religion is the same, in theory.

As an atheist, all religion strikes me as silly - even when it motivates people to do good. But I can tolerate it, and respect it.

When a religion motivates actually causes harm - when Islamic extrimists fly planes into buildings, when Christian scientist prevent my granduncle from getting live-saving surgery, when Jehova's Witnesses drive my uncle to suicide by disallowing him to enter rehab .. respect bye bye.

Same goes to Scientology if it tries to prevent people from seeking psychological treatment they need.

 

[Jan]

Whether it's OK for a government to print leaflets about them... is a more interesting question. In my eyes, it's ethically fine (freedom of speech goes both ways), but probably not an efficient way. However, it is one way of dealing with the issue.

On the surface, that statement ((freedom of speech goes both ways) seems correct but I find that I disagree wholeheartedly. A *government* expressing an opinion is publishing propaganda.

Jan

 

[crazyhorse]

Hey you you don't know what I'm talking about when I mention the Nazi attitude towards the Jews then there is no help for you.Discrimination of the state towards any system of belief is wrong.

For every example you give of the good works of Christianity I can give you a negative.There is a Christain group in Africa that kidnaps childeren and feeds them drugs and propoganda before forcing them to fight.I've never read of Scientologists calling gays immoral or an affront to God.Has the Geman Goverment released a statement warning of the inherent homophobia of Christians?

Scientology has also done a great deal to help people although this is convenently ignored.

Just because they are new is the major problem.Just because you don't believe doesn't mean that it's members should be treated with scorn,well no more than any other faith.

I don't believe in any of this religion stuff either but I will defend to my last breath the right of anybody to follow the system of belief they choose,even if I do find it distasteful.

 

[puzzle]

Define what you consider to be worthy of repect.

A person deserves respectful treatment, if they don't harm others - except in return for harm done to themselves, or in return for harm done to another person who didn't provoke it either.

I pointed out a modern situation where the Catholic Church has hidden the rape of childeren to protect it's own interests.Are you denying that this is immoral and illegal?

Morality and law are not my business, but I recognize they sometimes represent ethics.

Harming another is unethical and unacceptable. Persons harming another person should be stopped and exacted retribution from. Persons complicit in their crimes should also be exacted retribution from, but in lesser degree.

Organizations where an unusually high number of persons harm others or are complicit in that, should be opposed - with the goal of causing them to change or disappear. If that includes the Catholic church, so be it. I wouldn't cry a single tear if governments decided to join me in the opinion that they're wacky. Governments are not my friends, and churches aren't either.

Though arguably, the Catholic church, statistically isn't as wacky per capita (at least in recent times) as Scientology is. It has been more wacky and more dangerous though, in old times. For which reason I'm happy to note, that its power has been worn away, and is diminishing still - it has changed, and will probably need to change some more.

As I said,should warnings not be given over all sects and their dangers?

I wouldn't protest against that, but I do admit the frequency of malicious behaviour in religious organizations differs.

If anyone asked me personally, I'd recommend them to avoid religion, or if they really want, choose one which doesn't have a church, or if they really can't find one, choose the least hegemonizing one - preferably one which accepts neither money nor power.

FFS you would have thought the Germans learnt from their victimisation of the Jews,now they are doing it again.

Reality check. Nobody's shipping Scientologists for gassing and cremation.

We're talking about leaflets telling somethig pretty factual: that organization, for its small size, is associated with a very high number of abuses.

If an organization does harm, political correctness should not be an obstacle to harming it back - in equal or lesser degree. It's a sad fact of life that in most places on Earth, state is currently the only widely accepted mechanism for arranging such things. That's not what I want, merely the current situation. What I wish to see instead, is a topic for another time, lest this thread become a total mess.

Just because certain faiths have robbed us for a couple of thousand more years doesn't give them any more credence.They are essentially the same.

They are.

My own Big Hairy Balls Religion has as much validity as any other.

I'm sure the Flying Spaghetti Monster approves of your religion, and Pastafarians all over the world cherish its existence.

Once again I'll say the Universal Declaration of Human Rights says any person has the right to believe in any religion without prejudice.

The declaration of human rights does not grant the right to harrass others on religious grounds. (And sure enough, if it hypothetically granted such a right, I'd consider the grant void.)

 

[Chilli]

Hey you you don't know what I'm talking about when I mention the Nazi attitude towards the Jews then there is no help for you.Discrimination of the state towards any system of belief is wrong.

Rounding people up based on their ethnicity and gassing them = warning people about dangerous practices of religious groups? Okay...

 

[crazyhorse]

The Final Solution was the end product of Nazi discrimination towards the Jewish people.Most people didn't even know it was happening at the time.

It was made easier by the years of Goverment sponsered abuse however.It is a slippry slope the Germans are travelling and history shows us how easy it is to fall off.

It's a lot easier and fashionable trend to abuse something like Scientology for it's beliefs than it is to have a go at one of the more established religions.

Oh the CoE is thinking about sueing Sony over a video game that has a shootout in a Cathedral in Manchester.Looks like they sue as well when it suits them.