Is JMS a Scientologist?

[puzzle]

It's a lot easier and fashionable trend to abuse something like Scientology for it's beliefs than it is to have a go at one of the more established religions.

Not their beliefs. Merely their habit of manipulating others to their own profit and others' detriment.

Yes, it's easier... and more fashionable. But that's life - and I never said life was perfect or impossible to change.

 

[Sindatur]

I think the biggest thing about Scientology prejudice and the warnings by the german Gov't is the fact of their tactics of preventing people from leaving the religion, as well as the fact that they are relatively new and well documented that they are indeed a scam. The religions that center around a Supreme Being are older and share the same basic mythology (although with varying degrees of what they focus upon).

 

[GKarsEye]

I've never read of Scientologists calling gays immoral or an affront to God.

Homosexuality is certainly immoral and deviant, according to Scientology, and one of those things that can be "cured" by auditing.

Scientology is especially dangerous because, unlike most religions, they practice bad science. They wrap their whole auditing business in scienc-y sounding terminology, praying on the masses' ignorance of science. Kind of like those BS diets and such.

 

[Chilli]

It's a lot easier and fashionable trend to abuse something like Scientology for it's beliefs than it is to have a go at one of the more established religions.

This is true. However, Germany HAS also been going at more established religions when their practices violate laws.

For example, female genital cutting. Though not a part of Islam, though it predates Islam, it is practiced by many Moslems, and has definitely gained a religious dimension. It's still illegal in Germany, though. It's not covered by religious tolerance, as the practice breaks German law.

"Religious freedom" does not excuse the breaking of laws. I can't create a cult based on human sacrifice, and hope to have it respected due to religious freedoms.

Stalking people, and preventing people from getting medical treatment they need, also goes against German (constitutional) law. As such, Scientology is perceived as a danger, and Germany has the kind of government that does warn its citizens from dangers. Does this make it a nanny state? Possible. But as it does the same in regard to cigarettes, alcohol, drugs, unsafe driving, unprotected sex .. it's hardly an inconsitency.

Either way though, nazi metaphors are fun, but completely wacky here. The prosecution of Jews in Germany had nothing to do with Jewish religious practices in any way breaking German laws. At NO point was what happened then, in any way, comparable to this. There is no slippery slope.

If the persecution of Jews in Germany started with the Nazis warning people that circumcision can cause infections, you'd have a point. Alas, it didn't.

 

[crazyhorse]

I never knew about the gays being sick part actually.While they are not calling them abominations I still find it distastful.

Religions have to obey the Law of the land.If a religion is against divorce they can preach this to it's members but has no right to stop someone getting divorced.People also have the right to refuse medical treatment on religous grounds.Anybody stopping someone from obtaining medical treatment can be prosecuted under Criminal Law however.Saying you don't believe medical treatment is right is not a crime,just stupid.Several religions have this policy.

I know the Germans view groups like the Jehova Witness's and Mormons as sects.I do believe there is a differance between a Goverment report like the Foster Report and the giving out of leaflets designed to give a negative view on a certain group.

This was how Germany started before.It also gives a precedent to do it again with other groups.Considering Germanys paranoia over all things to do with its Nazi past and its banning of all things related to it I am surprised that it would do one of the things the Nazi's were famous for.I'm not saying it will lead to genocide,just that it is discrimination.I am against any state that will wage a propoganda war over peoples beliefs.It just isn't right.

Like I said,I think they are a bunch of bawbags myself and I have no problem saying it.When a State starts doing this over groups of people I worry though.

Anyway is Scientology not legal in Austria?

I know it is in Sweden and a few other European countries.

 

[Chilli]

I never knew about the gays being sick part actually.While they are not calling them abominations I still find it distastful.

Religions have to obey the Law of the land.If a religion is against divorce they can preach this to it's members but has no right to stop someone getting divorced.People also have the right to refuse medical treatment on religous grounds.Anybody stopping someone from obtaining medical treatment can be prosecuted under Criminal Law however.

Which is one difference in laws between the US and most European countries. In the US, people can, on religious grounds, prevent others from getting medical treatment.

When my grand-uncle had a stroke, he was in serious need of surgery. His christian scientist wife would not permit it though, on religious grounds - her religious grounds. And the hospital could, indeed, not operate without her okay.

my great-grandfather finally managed to pave the way to the operation he needed (not before my granduncle suffered brain damage he kept for the rest of his life, though) by having their marriage annuled retro-actively - by making sure that officially, she never had anything to do with my grand-uncle.

When my uncle had all kinds of psychological and drug problems, he wanted to go into rehab. The Jehova's witnesses, which he had married into, prevented him though .. because "god will help". The result of this was my uncle hanging himself from a tree, one morning.

I do not mind that European legal systems would not let this kind of crap happen.

This was how Germany started before.It also gives a precedent to do it again with other groups.Considering Germanys paranoia over all things to do with its Nazi past and its banning of all things related to it I am surprised that it would do one of the things the Nazi's were famous for.I'm not saying it will lead to genocide,just that it is discrimination.

Nazi discrimination was hardly ever based on warning people about illegal actions. I really can't see any basis for any comparison here.

Anyway is Scientology not legal in Austria?

It is, yes. But if members of Scientology were to start stalking me, I could call the police on them. Same applies to catholic missionaries - I have actually seen people threaten to call the police on a catholic missionary.

 

[GKarsEye]

Nazi discrimination was hardly ever based on warning people about illegal actions. I really can't see any basis for any comparison here.

Nazis were obviously the only people that ever did anything in history, ever. That's why everything has to be compared to them.

 

[crazyhorse]

I at no point said the German Goverment were Nazis for what they have done,just stated that I was surprised considering their history that a religous group is being singled out by the Goverment and a Campaign against it waged.

Other people brought in genocide and nonsense into the picture.I also pointed out that other religions have there problems but no one is warned about them in this manner.I questioned whether or not it was lawful.

It is easy to use facts to ridicule any faith and most faiths have had members involved in criminal acts before.This is a matter for the police.If the Goverment wants to say it's practices are illegal then make the faith in its form illegal.

You don't let it be legal and then start a smear campaign against them.

 

[hypatia]

Clubs, knitting groups, baseball teams, and religions can't either hold or lose respect. Only individuals can.

You cannot pick a classification of "people" that won't contain proof that some of each class has been pretty rotten to the others (any group of people that lives long enough, that is ). Every single grouple as its bad apple somewhere.

Although I don't recall a period of time in history, anywhere, where radical atheists went around killing or "converting" all non-atheists.

And it's atheists that people don't trust. :roll:

 

[Sindatur]

I at no point said the German Goverment were Nazis for what they have done,just stated that I was surprised considering their history that a religous group is being singled out by the Goverment and a Campaign against it waged.

Other people brought in genocide and nonsense into the picture.I also pointed out that other religions have there problems but no one is warned about them in this manner.I questioned whether or not it was lawful.

It is easy to use facts to ridicule any faith and most faiths have had members involved in criminal acts before.This is a matter for the police.If the Goverment wants to say it's practices are illegal then make the faith in its form illegal.

You don't let it be legal and then start a smear campaign against them.

But, see Catholic Church doesn't preach that it's OK to molest children, nor do they encourage it. they merely turned a blind eye to it and tried to make it go away quietly. It is a small percentage of the preachers who did it.

With Scientology, they actually preach against you being able to leave, it is the leaders actively preventing you from leaving, it's completely different.

 

[raw_bean]

I'm not sure anyone read my previous post, but never mind, lets try again with another point:

Reading that report Shabaz posted, it seems to me that the German establishment could be so dead set against the Scientologists *BECAUSE* of the Nazi party. If you read that report, they describe the organisation as 'autocratic' and running contrary to democracy in its pushing of total obedience to the organisation over individual rights. So it's not really any more surprising they're warning people away from it than it would be if they were warning people away from a cult based around Hitler's writings instead of Hubbard's.

Since personal anecdotes are being trotted all over the place, here's one of my own: My cousin works as a psychiatrc nurse. On one occasion a mentally handicapped person under his care was bundled off the street into a Scientology 'church' or chapel or whatever. By the time my cousin got to him, they'd thrust dianetics or some book into his hands, begun hard-selling the poor bloke about how Scientology held the answer to his problems, and refused to let him go until he paid for the book in his hands, whilst also refusing to take it back. The guy got worked up into an emotional state, the Scientologists were harrassing and unreasonable, and in the end my cousin had to call the police before he could straighten the situation out. The fuzz arrived pretty sharpish, and sorted it out, and told my cousin that they get reports like his all the time, they're constantly having to intercede with the Scientologists and warn them over their harrassing - verging on criminal - behaviour towards any vulnerable person who happens by.

 

[Chilli]

I at no point said the German Goverment were Nazis for what they have done,just stated that I was surprised considering their history that a religous group is being singled out by the Goverment and a Campaign against it waged.

Other people brought in genocide and nonsense into the picture.I also pointed out that other religions have there problems but no one is warned about them in this manner.I questioned whether or not it was lawful.

Making Nazi comparisons and leaving out genocide is daft. The Nazis also breathed air. Thus, the Green Party of Bulgaria is like the Nazis. I mean .. its members all breathe air!

It is easy to use facts to ridicule any faith and most faiths have had members involved in criminal acts before.

Correct, but Germany is not hard on Scientology for criminal acts commited by its members, it's watching Scientology for *policies* it has that break the regulations applying to ALL religious organisations in Germany. It is only singling Scientology out in so far as Scientology does not stick to the rules that apply to *all* religions. Other religious organisations, such as extremist islamic sects, get the very same treatment. I mean .. I even posted a picture of a flyer on islamic extremism, didn't I?

The Lutheran church is not allowed to stalk individuals. If you are stalked by the Lutheran church, you do get to call the police.

The Lutheran church is not allowed to prevent its members from seeking medical treatment they need. As it does not do this, it doesn't have problems with the law.

 

[Chilli]

I'm not sure anyone read my previous post, but never mind, lets try again with another point:

Reading that report Shabaz posted, it seems to me that the German establishment could be so dead set against the Scientologists *BECAUSE* of the Nazi party. If you read that report, they describe the organisation as 'autocratic' and running contrary to democracy in its pushing of total obedience to the organisation over individual rights. So it's not really any more surprising they're warning people away from it than it would be if they were warning people away from a cult based around Hitler's writings instead of Hubbard's.

That is correct - they see Scientology's structure countrary to democracy. "Schützt unsere Demokratie", the slogan on the fliers, means "protect our democracy.

This, in my opinion, is kind of silly, as .. a religion has cultist elements? Who'd have thought ...

The fact remains, though, that Scientology does not play by the rules.

 

[crazyhorse]

Look if they are breaking German Law as an organisation then they should not be allowed to be legal anyway.

If individuals break the Law then that is for the police to deal with.

Pussy footing about inbetween is just stupid.

 

[GKarsEye]

Although I don't recall a period of time in history, anywhere, where radical atheists went around killing or "converting" all non-atheists.

The communist regimes of the Soviet Union and Mao's China forbade religion, and Mao is arguable responsible for the most deaths in all of history.

No religion, or lack thereof, is "responsible" for anything.

 

[Chilli]

The Soviet Union didn't quite *forbid* religion, it just quite strongly discouraged its usage. Under Stalin, Religious leaders did face persecution .. but not due to their religious beliefs, but because Satlin went after *anyone* that had *any* kind of power over people - priest, big farmer, mayor, rabbi .. it didn't matter what you were, or what your belief was, but if you had too much respect from people, you were fucked.

They were also generally harder on all churches aside from the Russian orthodox church, as that was, on the short time, too hard to pull out of Russian society. They did plan to erradicate it eventually, but never quite got too it.

After having had some experience with the Soviet mindset, though, I would not call the Soviet Union an atheist state. The reason it didn't need religion was that it *was* a religion.

The point remains though .. no belief system is responsible for anything. Assholes are.

 

[hypatia]

Did Mao execute people for practicing religion? For not being atheist.

Anyway, back to the points being made in the personal stories here:

gads, I had no idea it was that bad. I know there have always been cults, usually supported by the law (thus the man tales of families kidnapping and "deprogramming" their children before the police can find them). But I had no idea Scientology did that, and in such a blatant way.

I don't know, though, somehow making Scientology illegal seems like the ultimate censorship. But hearing some of this crap is making me wonder.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

My own Big Hairy Balls Religion has as much validity as any other.

Not until you sacrifice them to save the rest of us...

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Did Mao execute people for practicing religion? For not being atheist.

Probably. One famous quote from Mao was "Religion is poison." The current crop of Chinese leaders have executed members of the "Falun Gong," who practice a sort of Tai Chi, just because they were becoming so popular.

 

[Chilli]

Karl Marx himself did coin the phrase that religion is the opium of the people - a sentiment I actually agree with, though I do not believe states have the right to enforce withdrawal.

In most communist countries, though, the prosecution of religion is/was not really based on a desire to weed out religion, but more based on not allowing any higher power than "the party" in the country.

Wiki actually has a extensive and interesting article on religion in the Soviet Union. Another factor for the the distinct anti-religious stance was nationalism tied in with religion - various religions were often interconnected with ideas of nations which the Soviet Union did not want to have existing - catholicism in Lithuania, islam in central asia and the caucasus, lutheranism in Latvia and Estonia (eventhough Estonia is, statistically, the most atheist nation on earth), and initially also orthodoxy in Russia, which was still associated with imperial days.