'Revenge of the Sith' reviews (Spoilers)

[PillowRock]

Re: \'Revenge of the Sith\' reviews (Spoilers)

Then he wouldn't be the hero Lucas makes him up to be.

Vader a hero? Are we watching the same movies?

Well, not Vader; Anakin Skywalker. You know, the guy whose ghost is standing with Obi-Wan and Yoda at the end of the last (chronologcally in story time) movie.

And, yeah, he does return to being the "Chosen One" who gets rid of the last of the Sith.

 

[GKarsEye]

Re: \'Revenge of the Sith\' reviews (Spoilers)

You know, the guy whose ghost is standing with Obi-Wan and Yoda at the end of the last (chronologcally in story time) movie.

Well I always hated that Anakin/Vader's ghost got to hang out with OB1 and Yoda.

 

[Recoil]

Re: \'Revenge of the Sith\' reviews (Spoilers)

I agree with GKE on this one. I never liked that Anikin's ghost got to hang with Yoda and the "Good Jedi." Ok, fine, he did a good act at the end, but that HARDLY offsets all the evil he did over the years. He should have still burned. That would have made the story far more poingnent (sp?).

Also, this is my LARGEST beef with the re-edited DVDs of the original movies. Why the FUCK did Lucas put Hayden Christensen at the end scene instead of the actor who just got done playing Anikin like...30 seconds earlier? Makes no damn sense at all. If I were luke, I would be going "Who the fuck is that young little punk standing next to ObiWan?" (Who btw is the OLD Alec Guiness ObiWan and NOT the young Ewan McGreggor ObiWan). Nice consistency there...

 

[vacantlook]

Re: \'Revenge of the Sith\' reviews (Spoilers)

We're all assuming that Plagius was Sidius' master, which is a stretch in the first place.

Oh, it so is not a stretch whatsoever. If it was any more blatant, Ian McDiarmid would have to walk through a scene carrying a sign that reads, "I'm was a proud apprentice of Darth Plagueis."

 

[vacantlook]

Re: \'Revenge of the Sith\' reviews (Spoilers)

Try watching Episode IV, A New Hope.

RotS gives incredible weight now to Vader sensing "a presence [he hasn't] felt since..." in ANH. The last time he felt that presence was when he lost an arm, two legs, and got burned all over.

 

[vacantlook]

Re: \'Revenge of the Sith\' reviews (Spoilers)

Ok, fine, he did a good act at the end, but that HARDLY offsets all the evil he did over the years. He should have still burned. That would have made the story far more poingnent (sp?).

And this sort of sentiment makes me seriously glad that you're not in charge of the larger domains of life.

Also, this is my LARGEST beef with the re-edited DVDs of the original movies. Why the FUCK did Lucas put Hayden Christensen at the end scene instead of the actor who just got done playing Anikin like...30 seconds earlier? Makes no damn sense at all. If I were luke, I would be going "Who the fuck is that young little punk standing next to ObiWan?" (Who btw is the OLD Alec Guiness ObiWan and NOT the young Ewan McGreggor ObiWan). Nice consistency there...

Note how you're able to easily pull out Hayden Christensen's name in relation to his having played Anakin Skywalker, and weren't able to pull out Sebastian Shaw's name for his exceptionally brief time in the film. This is a demonstration of which actor is now most recognizable as Anakin. It makes sense if you see it as the innocent spirit of Anakin Skywalker having died when he became Vader. Obi-Wan saw it this way. And now we know for certain based on his comments in RotS that Yoda saw it this way too. It makes complete sense to me for one's Force-ghost to be in the image of what one looked like at their last moment of innocence. And if Luke can sense Vader across cold kilometers in space from ship to ship without seeing him whatsoever, I think Luke's got enough skill to look directly at the appearance of his father from decades prior and sense who he's looking at without any trouble.

 

[PillowRock]

Re: \'Revenge of the Sith\' reviews (Spoilers)

Note how you're able to easily pull out Hayden Christensen's name in relation to his having played Anakin Skywalker, and weren't able to pull out Sebastian Shaw's name for his exceptionally brief time in the film. This is a demonstration of which actor is now most recognizable as Anakin.

However, the production order *still* makes the most sense as an intial viewing order for new audiances. That is certainly the order that I would recomend that my young nephew (now 2 1/2) would see them.

That swap renders the ghost unrecognizable to that audiance.


With regard to the whole "should Anakin's ghost have been included?" question: Note that JoeDM's phrase was simply "hero that Lucas made him out to be". Regardless of whether one thinks Anakin deserves the appellation, I think that it is clear that Lucas is painting him as a redeemed hero at the end.

 

[vacantlook]

Re: \'Revenge of the Sith\' reviews (Spoilers)

I think that it is clear that Lucas is painting him as a redeemed hero at the end.

Yeah, the whole point of Luke's character is his singular ability to spawn redemption in his father; that's what the Ep4-6 overstory is about.

 

[GKarsEye]

Re: \'Revenge of the Sith\' reviews (Spoilers)

Well, I guess I'm either a complete fucking moron or have a poor memory. From what I remember, Palpatine talked about a Sith lord who discovered the secret of preventing death (not "creating life," as I've seen others say) and was killed by his apprentice. We don't know how far back the Sith have gone but I'm assuming centuries considering how wary the Jedi are of them. Nothing said of shown connects Plagius as being Sidius' mentor unless I missed something I didn't mention in this post.

 

[vacantlook]

Re: \'Revenge of the Sith\' reviews (Spoilers)

...Palpatine talked about a Sith lord who discovered the secret of preventing death (not "creating life," as I've seen others say)....

At the same time that Palpatine spoke about Plagueis's ability to stop people from dying, he also told Anakin about Plagueis's ability to influence midi-chlorians to create life. That statement has no meaning really unless it is to alert the viewer under awareness of the entire saga about Anakin's having been born without a father through the midi-chlorians.

Nothing said of shown connects Plagius as being Sidius' mentor....

Palpatine speaks with considerable awareness of the story of Plagueis, and while I'll admit there is a possibility that he is doing nothing but being a little storyteller and telling some old Sith legend, I see a lot more in that scene. Putting the timing required for when Anakin would have been created by midi-chlorian manipulation (in other words, relatively recently in history) together with the almost fondness for Plagueis with which Palpatine speaks, it seems to me that he's most likely not just telling some story but instead reliving in his memory the events of his killing Plagueis. Palpatine tells Anakin that Plagueis taught his apprentice everything he (Plagueis) knew, and then later Palpatine tells Anakin that thanks to the what he (Palpatine) was taught by his mentor about the Dark Side that he (Palpatine) could help Anakin save Padmé's life. Being that Palpatine says Plagueis taught his apprentice everything, that would include extending someone's life, the very thing that Sidious tells Anakin he will teach him if Anakin joins him. It seems fairly apparent to me that Sidious was Plagueis's apprentice.

My ultimate theory is that despite what he said, Sidious didn't actually know how to influence midi-chlorians or to extend life, but that Plagueis did know this but refused or just didn't teach Sidious this, and that resentment for not being taught it and endless desire for more power contributed to Sidious's having killed Plagueis. The other part that contributed to Sidious killing Plagueis in my theory is that Sidious became aware that Plagueis had created Anakin via midi-chlorian manipulation, and Sidious realized that Plagueis was already planning on replacing him with a new apprentice. So, Sidious planned on doing a run around: if Plagueis wouldn't teach him, he'd learn by studying and using the midi-chlorian-manipulated-creation itself to get it to lead him to the secrets of manipulation of midi-chlorians and to extending a person's life, thus Sidious's statement to Anakin that together they could discover how to achieve immortality.

 

[GKarsEye]

Re: \'Revenge of the Sith\' reviews (Spoilers)

My ultimate theory is that despite what he said, Sidious didn't actually know how to influence midi-chlorians or to extend life

No theorising required- Palpatine said this outright. The only promise he made to Anakin was that they would try to figure it out together. He wasn't promising Anakin this ability, only the possibility of discovering it since it was a Sith who did it before.

and while I'll admit there is a possibility that he is doing nothing but being a little storyteller and telling some old Sith legend

He's certainly dramatising it- that's called being persuasive. And yeah, he picked a story that would interest Anakin and get him thinking about the value of the Dark Side.

together with the almost fondness for Plagueis with which Palpatine speaks, it seems to me that he's most likely not just telling some story but instead reliving in his memory the events of his killing Plagueis.

So you're guessing. What I saw was an affection for the power and the legend of the Sith. Palpatine feels pride for his order as exhibited later when he gleefully exclaims that the Sith will rule the galaxay again. I think he sees himself as the lone bearer of a proud tradition that's been marginalised for too long and he's gonna be the one to put them back in the game.

Either way, it's certainly not as "obvious" as you made it sound before.

If we want to be kind to the film, we'll say they "left it open to interpretation." Or it's just sloppy storytelling.

. The other part that contributed to Sidious killing Plagueis in my theory is that Sidious became aware that Plagueis had created Anakin via midi-chlorian manipulation, and Sidious realized that Plagueis was already planning on replacing him with a new apprentice. So, Sidious planned on doing a run around: if Plagueis wouldn't teach him, he'd learn by studying and using the midi-chlorian-manipulated-creation itself to get it to lead him to the secrets of manipulation of midi-chlorians and to extending a person's life, thus Sidious's statement to Anakin that together they could discover how to achieve immortality.

And this was never touched upon ever again, then? Never mentioned in the original trilogy, not mentioned after the Emperor saved Anakin and gave him his new digs. I could see Vader dropping his interest in it, but the Emperor? Sure it's possible that he was working on it and failed, but now we're really getting into the realm of fan fiction.

Regardless of whether one thinks Anakin deserves the appellation, I think that it is clear that Lucas is painting him as a redeemed hero at the end.

Just because his "soul" or whatever is redeemed doesn't mean he's a "hero."

Vader is the Star Wars universe equivalent of a Himmler or a Qusay Hussein. That can be easy to forget under the cool suit and sympathetic kid of Phantom Menace.

 

[Quagmire]

Re: \'Revenge of the Sith\' reviews (Spoilers)

I definately got the feeling that Plaugeous was Palpatine's master, created Annakin, and didn't teach Palp all his tricks. The smirk Palpatine wore when recounting how Plaugeous' apprentice got the better of him really seemed joy at getting one over on the old man.

Joe, Episodes I and II are ideal for the dvd format. For episode II simply fast forward anytime Padme and Annakin are alone on Naboo. It makes the movie quicker and edits out enough bad love crap not enhance the movie.

Does anyone know what has been added for the digital screenings? I'm thinking of hopping over the PA border to catch a digital showing tomorrow and should probably know what to look for.

 

[admiraldave]

Re: \'Revenge of the Sith\' reviews (Spoilers)

Does anyone know what has been added for the digital screenings?

Aside from the sharper digital picture, I don't think there's a difference in actual story content or editing. I only saw the digital, though.

 

[vacantlook]

Re: \'Revenge of the Sith\' reviews (Spoilers)

Or it's just sloppy storytelling.

It's as sloppy as Kosh's fighting with Shadows in "Signs and Portents" when he and Morden meet in the middle of a hallway and Kosh says, "Leave this place; they are not for you." One can sit there and go, he's talking to Morden and whatever that caused damage to Kosh's suit must have been a fight with Morden, but it wasn't: Kosh was talking to the invisible Shadows that always accompany Morden, and it was with them that Kosh fought. But just because it isn't blatant, doesn't make it sloppy.

And this was never touched upon ever again, then? Never mentioned in the original trilogy, not mentioned after the Emperor saved Anakin and gave him his new digs. I could see Vader dropping his interest in it, but the Emperor? Sure it's possible that he was working on it and failed, but now we're really getting into the realm of fan fiction.

If we have to rely on what was in the original trilogy to say whether something can have a place in the prequel trilogy, then we'd have to say bunches of alien races all went extinct simultaneously since we never see them in the original trilogy too. Just because it's not there being spelled out doesn't mean it can't be there unspoken.

Just because his "soul" or whatever is redeemed doesn't mean he's a "hero."

It's called a tragic hero.

Definition of a Tragic Hero

A tragic hero has the potential for greatness but is doomed to fail. He is trapped in a situation where he cannot win. He makes some sort of tragic flaw, and this causes his fall from greatness. Even though he is a fallen hero, he still wins a moral victory, and his spirit lives on.


TRAGIC HEROES ARE:

<ul type="square">[*]BORN INTO NOBILITY

[*]RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR OWN FATE

[*]ENDOWED WITH A TRAGIC FLAW

[*]DOOMED TO MAKE A SERIOUS ERROR IN JUDGEMENT[/list]


EVENTUALLY, TRAGIC HEROES

<ul type="square">[*]FALL FROM GREAT HEIGHTS OR HIGH ESTEEM

[*]REALIZE THEY HAVE MADE AN IRREVERSIBLE MISTAKE

[*]FACES AND ACCEPTS DEATH WITH HONOR

[*]MEET A TRAGIC DEATH[/list]


FOR ALL TRAGIC HEROES

<ul type="square">[*]THE AUDIENCE IS AFFECTED BY PITY and/or FEAR[/list]

 

[vacantlook]

Re: \'Revenge of the Sith\' reviews (Spoilers)

I definately got the feeling that Plaugeous was Palpatine's master, created Annakin, and didn't teach Palp all his tricks. The smirk Palpatine wore when recounting how Plaugeous' apprentice got the better of him really seemed joy at getting one over on the old man.

Exactly!

Does anyone know what has been added for the digital screenings? I'm thinking of hopping over the PA border to catch a digital showing tomorrow and should probably know what to look for.

I've read that some people were expecting things to be included in the digital version that weren't in the celuloid version, but I haven't read anything from anyone who's seen both versions that there's anything they've noticed that's different.

 

[Fas]

Re: \'Revenge of the Sith\' reviews (Spoilers)

vacantlook, you are probably reading too much into that... All I got from that scene was Palpatine telling Anakin an story about the Sith that further seduces him more. If I remember correctly all the talk was about the difference between Jedi and Sith, how the Sith were selfish and only think about themselves, and the Jedi were different. Palpatine's sick mind twisted that statement around, as well as took advantage of Anakin's fears.

 

[GKarsEye]

Re: \'Revenge of the Sith\' reviews (Spoilers)

For episode II simply fast forward anytime Padme and Annakin are alone on Naboo.

I know this is unconstructive bitching but... well, that just sucks. B5 showed us that you can have romance in space that is interesting and believable. For the original trilogy it's the centerpiece of Anakin's character- and it's unwatchable.

It's as sloppy as Kosh's fighting with Shadows in "Signs and Portents" when he and Morden meet in the middle of a hallway and Kosh says, "Leave this place; they are not for you." One can sit there and go, he's talking to Morden and whatever that caused damage to Kosh's suit must have been a fight with Morden, but it wasn't: Kosh was talking to the invisible Shadows that always accompany Morden, and it was with them that Kosh fought. But just because it isn't blatant, doesn't make it sloppy.

But the invisible Shadows were revealed for what they were later in the story, so I don't understand this analogy.

If we have to rely on what was in the original trilogy to say whether something can have a place in the prequel trilogy, then we'd have to say bunches of alien races all went extinct simultaneously since we never see them in the original trilogy too. Just because it's not there being spelled out doesn't mean it can't be there unspoken.

How many aliens they show us is clearly a stylistic and set-piece thing, not comparable to dealing with an obscenely powerful ability that was responsible for creating the villain. Nor did it have to be done in the original. They had ~8 hours of screen time and half-a-dozen years to tell this story- no need to leave this seemingly important thing left dangling like that (unless, of course, Palpatine didn't give a shit about preventing death and just used it as temptation to bait Anakin, and then Anakin realised this but it was too late to do anything about it).

It's called a tragic hero.

OK, fair enough. But then this is disputable:

He is trapped in a situation where he cannot win.

He could have won with just a bit of patience and faith in his closest mentor, friends, and the philosophies that define everything good in his world. Heck, Yoda told him what he needed to do, and he says, "Ok," and then completely ignores it.

Obi Wan seems to fit that description except for the "potential for greatness" thing, since he's just a "normal" Jedi.

 

[Recoil]

Re: \'Revenge of the Sith\' reviews (Spoilers)

Note how you're able to easily pull out Hayden Christensen's name in relation to his having played Anakin Skywalker, and weren't able to pull out Sebastian Shaw's name for his exceptionally brief time in the film. This is a demonstration of which actor is now most recognizable as Anakin.

If this is your only reason for the change being a good idea, then that's pretty poor. The only reason I remember who Hayden Christensen is, is because his acting (or lack thereof) is being bashed from here to the Swiss Alps. You can't possibly NOT know who he is right now, and hes not exactly being identified in a good way with Anikin. And the actor who played Vader before (Sebastian Shaw, whom I didn't bother to look up on IMDB before I made my post), did a great job --- for the 2 minutes you saw him --- which is enough for him to be recognized in the END SCENE of the SAME MOVIE.

And yes, I do sort of agree with your logic of that the reason he appears younger is because it is him when he was last a "good" Jedi, but it still doesn't really fit right. Technically, he was last a good Jedi when he tossed the freakin emperor down the long pit (which, BTW, why would you build one of those freakin endless pits in your throne room? good idea/bad idea?) so thats why having Sebastian Shaw play him makes sense. If all it takes to be immortal is to be a good Jedi up to a certain point...then turn evil, shit, any Dark Jedi could re-appear as a ghost at his younger age no matter how many bad things he did and for how long.

 

[Recoil]

Re: \'Revenge of the Sith\' reviews (Spoilers)

In other news: Vacantlook has officially passed up KoshN as of late in the "most back-to-back posts in a given topic" category.

 

[vacantlook]

Re: \'Revenge of the Sith\' reviews (Spoilers)

vacantlook, you are probably reading too much into that...

Star Wars is a story with a lot of thick yet sutble drama, it requires seeing more than what's superficial face of the story. I think this might be why a lot of people don't like the prequel trilogy: they saw the original trilogy as simple and obvious, but now we're shown that the whole story isn't, and that's something they don't like.