'Revenge of the Sith' reviews (Spoilers)

[vacantlook]

Re: \'Revenge of the Sith\' reviews (Spoilers)

And the actor who played Vader before (Sebastian Shaw, whom I didn't bother to look up on IMDB before I made my post), did a great job --- for the 2 minutes you saw him --- which is enough for him to be recognized in the END SCENE of the SAME MOVIE.

Sebastian Shaw's (I didn't need to look it up) performance made me want to leave the room when I watched the film years ago. I thought it was pathetic. But I eventually let go and I saw him for being him and not him for being not what I wanted him to be. It wouldn't have made sense to a viewer to have had it been someone else after only having seen Anakin in that one brief moment in RotJ. But the SAGA is more than the one trilogy. The scene now fits the Saga (which I know is what pisses people off since they hate half the saga).

which, BTW, why would you build one of those freakin endless pits in your throne room? good idea/bad idea?

Technically, he was last a good Jedi when he tossed the freakin emperor down the long pit... so thats why having Sebastian Shaw play him makes sense. If all it takes to be immortal is to be a good Jedi up to a certain point...then turn evil, shit, any Dark Jedi could re-appear as a ghost at his younger age no matter how many bad things he did and for how long.

We don't really know exactly how someone gets to become a Force-ghost though. It seems to have something to do with a direct will of consciousness. Perhaps it's the rebirth of the Jedi part of Anakin's spirit that causes his spirit to purge itself of the evil cling it had built up over the years. That when Anakin thinks of himself as a Jedi, it's his young self that he sees in his mind, not any of himself after he became Vader (including saving Luke, which he just sees as him saving his son, not as him being a Jedi). Yoda and Obi-Wan wouldn't think this way in regards to themselves as they see themselves as Jedi up to the point of their deaths.

In other news: Vacantlook has officially passed up KoshN as of late in the "most back-to-back posts in a given topic" category.

Ooo, do I get a certificate, or maybe a party thrown in my honor.

 

[vacantlook]

Re: \'Revenge of the Sith\' reviews (Spoilers)

But the invisible Shadows were revealed for what they were later in the story, so I don't understand this analogy.

Later in the story, we learn that Morden is never alone and we know that the Shadows aren't against a direct assault on Kosh, but we're NEVER directly told that the scene in "Signs And Portents" is between Kosh and the Shadows. We have to infer that scene based on other things. The analogy is that a similar thing occurs with the Opera scene. We know that Anakin was born of midi-chlorians. Here we're told that Plagueis had the ability to create life via midi-chlorian manipulation. There's no other point really to saying this except to illuminate upon Anakin's origins. So we have the timing of Plagueis's existance. We also know relatively how long Palpatine has been around. Putting the two together doesn't take a giant leap of logic to infer that Palpatine is then the one who killed Plagueis. So, I take that inference, and I take a reading of the performance (as Doctor Gonzo speaks of, Palpatine is performed in the telling of the story of Plagueis in a "I sure nailed that bastard and he didn't even see it coming!" undercurrent), and it all seems to make perfect sense to me.

 

[GKarsEye]

Re: \'Revenge of the Sith\' reviews (Spoilers)

- I remember Palpatine mentioning the manipulation of the midichlorians when talking about "extending life," ie, as part of his implication that he could help Padme, not as a seperate skill to "create life" as you do. This explains our difference of opinion. I will be looking for a transcript of the scene.

- Though the 6 films are one saga, each film is also a seperate movie. To edit in different actors is messed up, no matter how you want to explain it story-wise.

 

[admiraldave]

Re: \'Revenge of the Sith\' reviews (Spoilers)

The Force ghost wasn't properly explained anyway. All Yoda said was it allows one to merge with the Force, and said it'd take training. So how'd Anakin manage it? Why do it? Was Gui-gon the first to do it? Why?

- Though the 6 films are one saga, each film is also a seperate movie. To edit in different actors is messed up, no matter how you want to explain it story-wise.

Not to mention it's disrespectful to the original actor.

 

[Chilli]

Re: \'Revenge of the Sith\' reviews (Spoilers)

Editing Hayden Christiansen into the DVD was beyong stupid, yeah. I rewatched just that scene when my sister got the DVDs .. and had the same reaction people assume Luke would have. "What the fuck is that guy doing there?"

As for Anakin being there in principle .. I guess that's a matter of just what the "force" is. The way I interpretated it till seeing RotS was that Anakin and Darth Vader weren't really the "same person" .. but that when Anakin looked down into the pit of the dark side of the force, something from down there - Darth Vader - took him over and that he was basically schizophrenic after that .. and that at the end of RotJ, Anakin could "defeat" Vader finally.

Which made me REALLY want to spank Lucas with a big stinky trout for putting Christiansen into it even more - wasn't the point of Anakin/Vader killing the emperor that Anakin was finally "back" .. and that he died as an old man? Not as Hayden Christiansen?

Not that I didn't already want to spank Lucas around with a big smelly trout for "revisioning" the old trilogy like he has. He made a set of great movies back then .. can't he learn to deal with it? I'm fine with the fixing of a lot of the images .. but every time I saw a CGI character in the Special Edition, it just broke the mood for me. CGI isn't on a level where one can't notice what it is, especially when it's creatures. Seeing one every time didn't make me think "oh, how cool" .. it reminded me that Lucas REALLY needs to get over himself, BADLY.

And Han shot first .. another scene where the "enhancing" just destroyed it.

As for my prior Anakin/Vader "theory" RotS doesn't make that likely or possible. RotS shows us a guy making full free choices of the most piss-poor sort. If what we saw was canon .. any chance of him redeeming at the end of episode III has passed. They could have just as well cut him out of RotJ completely.

 

[darth_librarian]

Re: \'Revenge of the Sith\' reviews (Spoilers)

offical list of Easter eggs, for all of you off to see it again...

http://www.starwars.com/episode-iii/bts/production/f20050526/index.html

 

[GaribaldisHair]

Re: \'Revenge of the Sith\' reviews (Spoilers)

OK ...

now i haven't seen RotS yet, so I cannot comment drectly on what may or may not be in the movie, but as far the issue of "Kosh v Morden" compared to "Is Plagueis, Palpatine's Sith Mater?" is concerned, I would only say this.

With the Plagueis thing, dropping something like that in in the last movie of a series, without resolving what it really means, is not a particularly good way of telling the story. There seems no good reason to leave it open to the interpretation of the audience.

With Kosh v Morden, this was a piece of foreshadowing in the first season of a 5 season long TV show. The original incident is designed to make you think "How the hell did that happen?", and then the truth becomes clear later in the story.

The editting of HC into the DVDs is also an interesting one.

For the same reason that one might not watch ItB at the beginning of B5's sequence due to its potential to destroy the mysteries of S1, so one might prefer to watch the OT first to maintain the "No, I am your Father" surprise. If you do, the end of Ep6 will just leave you with a "Huh?" for another whole movie - as HC doesn't play Anakin until Ep2.

 

[MeadDrinker]

Re: \'Revenge of the Sith\' reviews (Spoilers)

I felt that whilst the Jedi assumed 'balance to the force' would be in their favour the end result was actually a more passionate breed of Jedi after Luke's brushes with the Dark side and the humility brought about by their near destruction. I think that, in the end, the choice between Jedi (Vorlons?) and Sith (Shadows; go on, you think it too) became irrelevant as a new path was found.

Perhaps the plan is to have a new breed of Jedi that is balanced in him/herself and does not sway constantly to either side, but instead is more flexible.

 

[Jendia]

Re: \'Revenge of the Sith\' reviews (Spoilers)

Recoil--
The Khan scream--too funny. I agree!

 

[Alluveal]

Re: \'Revenge of the Sith\' reviews (Spoilers)

Well, I finally saw it and I was pretty damn impressed. I'm sure there are little things I could nitpick, but why freakin' bother? I had a good time. That's all I care about.

 

[GaribaldisHair]

Re: \'Revenge of the Sith\' reviews (Spoilers)

Jedi (Vorlons?) and Sith (Shadows; go on, you think it too)

No I don't actually.

Whilst there is some similarity between the Jedi and Vorlons and the Sith and Shadows, for me there are some fundamental differences.

Most importantly, the Sith want to rule the galaxy - their use of the dark side of the Force is all about power. Theirs. I am not even convinced that they want the power because they think they are right and would do a better job than anyone else. They just want to be in charge.

The Shadows on the other hand are not trying to rule the galaxy. What they care about is spreading chaos and war in order that the "strongest" among the younger races can emerge to rule the galaxy (effectively). It is not about power, they just think that their philosophy is the right one, and the best one to aid the development of the younger races.

Whereas the Jedi and Sith are two opposite sides of the same coin with hugely different goals, the Vorlons are just like the Shadows with one exception - their philosophy is a different one, that growth and progress comes through order and obedience rather than chaos. However their goal, to help the development of the younger races, is identical.

The power thing only comes into it because of that clash of philosophies. They struggle and fight for theirs to be the dominant force for growth in the galaxy not for power over the galaxy itself.

Now picture this ...

The Jedi act as peacemakers/keepers in the service of the Republic and its member worlds, with a combination of supreme combat and tactical skills (both individually and as a unit) combined with a philosophy underpinned by calm reflection, meditation and the valuing of others above the self.

The Anla'Shok act as peacemakers/keepers in the service of the Interstellar Alliance and its member worlds, with a combination of supreme combat and tactical skills (both individually and as a unit) combined with a philosophy underpinned by calm reflection, meditation and the valuing of others above the self.

Spot the similarities?

 

[Elenopa]

Re: \'Revenge of the Sith\' reviews (Spoilers)

The Jedi act as peacemakers/keepers in the service of the Republic and its member worlds, with a combination of supreme combat and tactical skills (both individually and as a unit) combined with a philosophy underpinned by calm reflection, meditation and the valuing of others above the self.

The Anla'Shok act as peacemakers/keepers in the service of the Interstellar Alliance and its member worlds, with a combination of supreme combat and tactical skills (both individually and as a unit) combined with a philosophy underpinned by calm reflection, meditation and the valuing of others above the self.

Spot the similarities?

And they both have weapons that extend for use.

 

[GKarsEye]

Re: \'Revenge of the Sith\' reviews (Spoilers)

And they both have weapons that extend for use

Yo, I got a "weapon" that extends for use. Heh-heh... alright.


Haven't we learned by now that anyone can phrase anything that makes any two things look the same? *awaiting the inevitable and nonsensical B5=LotR comparison next*

 

[Elric]

Re: \'Revenge of the Sith\' reviews (Spoilers)

I have been less than imprerssed with eps 1 to 3. In Ep 3 especially, it just seems to consist of scenes which attempt to convey drama and tension, but just fail in every way. Examples:

1. Oh my god, the spaceship is going to crash, killing anakin, obi wan & the emporer (sorry, senator). Oh no, how silly of me, they must all survive because they are in eps 4, 5 & 6.

2. Anakin vs Obi Wan, and Emporer vs Yoda - big long fight scene. Hmm, who will win? Well I reckon Obi Wan will defeat anakin but anakin will be horribly disfigured somehow (probably involving that red hot lava) and the other fight will be draw. Wow good guess, how did I know THAT would happen.

OK, you get the idea. We all knew what was going to happen. Nothing new of any concequence was revealed. 2 hours of my life wasted!

Plus, I just didn't buy any of how he turned to the dark side. Let me summarise the scene where he he just helped to kill Mace Windu:

Anakin: "Oh no, what have I done?"
Emporor: "Join me, turn to the dark side - I have no idea how to save your wife, but hey we might figure it out in the short time before she gives birth and dies"
Anakin: "OK, sod the Jedi, I'm with you. I will kill anyone you want, including children, because there is tiny chance we can save my wife"

Arggggghhh - it was just so unconvincing.

Bringing balance can't mean that there are equal Jedi and equal Sith, because in the end there are only Jedi, and that would mean that Anakin failed and so he is not the chosen one right?

The prophecy doesn't say the balance he brings will be forever and ever. If the "balance" is between Jedi & Sith, then it lasts for about 18 years or so, a pretty good run for a prophecy.

That would be a terrible prophecy. He is supposed to be some kind of messiah and he brings 18 years of a dictatorship? Then he wouldn't be the hero Lucas makes him up to be.

Technically, he did bring balance to the force. At the end of the film, there were 2 Jedi and 2 Sith - sounds pretty balanced to me

 

[hypatia]

Re: \'Revenge of the Sith\' reviews (Spoilers)

Haven't we learned by now that anyone can phrase anything that makes any two things look the same? *awaiting the inevitable and nonsensical B5=LotR comparison next*

Babylon 5 = The Beverly Hillbillies.

Ivanova = Elly May (both energetic, independent-minded women

Jed = Kosh (hard to understand, but there is wisdom in there)

Granny = Garibaldi (high-spirited pain-in-the-ass characters that do make good points but cause a lot of trouble)

Jethro = Vir.

O.K., so it needs a little work.

 

[GKarsEye]

Re: \'Revenge of the Sith\' reviews (Spoilers)

OK, you get the idea. We all knew what was going to happen. Nothing new of any concequence was revealed. 2 hours of my life wasted!

Did you say the same thing about In the Beginning?

 

[KoshFan]

Re: \'Revenge of the Sith\' reviews (Spoilers)

Yo, I got a "weapon" that extends for use. Heh-heh... alright.

As soon as I saw that comment I knew instantly that GKE would respond to it, and I knew how he'd do it, too.



...well, maybe it's a guy thing, because I kinda had the same thought. But let's try very hard not to get this thread dragged into NC-17. Wait... dang it...

 

[PillowRock]

Re: \'Revenge of the Sith\' reviews (Spoilers)

Haven't we learned by now that anyone can phrase anything that makes any two things look the same? *awaiting the inevitable and nonsensical B5=LotR comparison next*

I once did that completely by accident.

Back when B5 was in first runs, I was watching regularly and my housemate at the time was often just around when it was on, reading the newpaper or whatever. Eventually he got sucked in and started asking questions to fill in holes and connections. When he asked about Marcus and his affiliation I said something along the lines of (and I swear that at the time it was completely unintentional):

He's part of a force that is a mixed group of humans and a much older race. They're trained by the older race. They scout around on the fringes on known civilization and watch for the return of an ancient super-powerful enemy. They're called Rangers.

He just looked at me and asked "So does Tolkien have a writing credit on this show?"


I agree that the B5=LotR in space argument doesn't hold any water at all. That particular tiny little piece does map remarkable well, though.

 

[PillowRock]

Re: \'Revenge of the Sith\' reviews (Spoilers)

1. Oh my god, the spaceship is going to crash, killing anakin, obi wan & the emporer (sorry, senator). Oh no, how silly of me, they must all survive because they are in eps 4, 5 & 6.

Forget episodes 4, 5, and 6!

It was the first sequence of *this* movie. You would know that they weren't going to crash and die regardless of this being a prequel.

 

[vacantlook]

Re: \'Revenge of the Sith\' reviews (Spoilers)

1. Oh my god, the spaceship is going to crash, killing anakin, obi wan & the emporer (sorry, senator). Oh no, how silly of me, they must all survive because they are in eps 4, 5 & 6.

As PillowRock said, they have to survive because they're three of the main characters and it's the freaking beginning of the movie.

2. Anakin vs Obi Wan, and Emporer vs Yoda - big long fight scene. Hmm, who will win? Well I reckon Obi Wan will defeat anakin but anakin will be horribly disfigured somehow (probably involving that red hot lava) and the other fight will be draw. Wow good guess, how did I know THAT would happen.

OK, you get the idea. We all knew what was going to happen. Nothing new of any concequence was revealed. 2 hours of my life wasted!

How in the world did you stand watching Babylon 5? We knew things were going to happen in it before we saw them happen too. It's the context that makes it entertaining, not the revelation of the events themselves.

Technically, he did bring balance to the force. At the end of the film, there were 2 Jedi and 2 Sith - sounds pretty balanced to me

Every single time I read someone pumping this out, it sounds like a superficial viewing and an attempt at being "clever".

The presence of the Sith unbalances the Force, which is manifested in the Jedi's decreased ability to use the Force. Anakin eventually kills Sidious, eliminating the Sith, and eliminating the drag on the Force that the Sith have created.