Triluminary

[Alluveal]

Someone in the WWE thread was mentioning the Triluminary. I've been paying attention to episodes with the triluminary in it and I'm wondering if we can break down its origin/existence.

In the episode I watched last night (where Delenn returns to Minbar to enter the dreaming before taking Sheridan on as a mate) she mentions that the triluminary was programmed to Sinclair's DNA and that's why it glowed when it came near to her. She's a descendent.

But, she also said "the triluminary that Sinclair got from Epsilon 3..."

Is this ever mentioned anywhere in the movies, show or books? That Sinclair got the triluminary from Epsilon 3? I had never heard that before I rewatched it.

 

[Alluveal]

I also caught this on Lurker's guide:

The Triluminaries used by the Grey Council were made specifically for Sinclair. They activate in the presence of Sinclair/Valen's DNA. They were made on Epsilon 3 and brought back in time by Sinclair

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

1. Not everything on TLG is canon. Much of it is speculation posted by fans during the original run of the series. This seems to be an example.

2. There are three triluminaries, so there is no such thing as "The Triluminary" They are treated as interchangable (the Grey Council member who gives one ot Delenn for use in the Chrysalis machine says it won't be missed because they still have the other two), but we can't be sure that every statement that applies to one of them applies equally to all. There may be differences between them that we're not aware of.

The Triluminaries used by the Grey Council were made specifically for Sinclair.

We don't know that, and Delenn doesn't say that. She says that the triluminary that she was tested with was programmed for Sinclair's DNA, and that's why it reacted to her. But she never says (and doesn't know) that it was made for Sinclair. It is at least as likely that Sinclair's DNA was imprinted on the Triluminary when he used it to become Valen as that it had been programmed for him in advance.

They activate in the presence of Sinclair/Valen's DNA.

That much we do know, from Delenn.

They were made on Epsilon 3 and brought back in time by Sinclair

Again, that isn't something we're actually told. We do know (thanks to JMS and some not-quite-clear shots in "War Without End") that the Chrysalis Device and the Triluminaries are on Epsilon 3 at the beginning of the episode, and that they're brought aboard the White Star by Zathras along with the time stabilizers. Given that all of this stuff is initmately connected with Sinclair's mission, the Rift in sector 14 and the time journey, it is reasonable to speculate that they were all created on Epsilon 3 and are somehow associated with the Great Machine, which controls the Rift. But it is also possible that they were made elsewhere (the Vorlon homeworld, Thirdspace, the home planet of The Hand ) and merely stored on Epsilon 3 until needed.

Regards,

Joe

 

[PillowRock]

Again, that isn't something we're actually told. We do know (thanks to JMS and some not-quite-clear shots in "War Without End") that the Chrysalis Device and the Triluminaries are on Epsilon 3 at the beginning of the episode, and that they're brought aboard the White Star by Zathras along with the time stabilizers. Given that all of this stuff is initmately connected with Sinclair's mission, the Rift in sector 14 and the time journey, it is reasonable to speculate that they were all created on Epsilon 3 and are somehow associated with the Great Machine, which controls the Rift. But it is also possible that they were made elsewhere (the Vorlon homeworld, Thirdspace, the home planet of The Hand ) and merely stored on Epsilon 3 until needed.

Except that some of the quotes in the "JMS Speaks" sections of the TLG pages on WWE are phrased along the lines of:

"They originated on Epsilon 3[/i]."

*If* those quotes are accurate, and JMS was being precise with his phrasing, then .....

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

He repeatedly says "it came from Epsilon 3", "it came up with Zathras from Epsilon 3" and once says "It originated on Epsilon 3" - but clearly in reply to a question that was asking where the Chrysalis device and the triluminary came from in the context of the episode. ("Hey, Sinclair had the Chrysalis device on B4. Where'd did that come from, we never saw it? Was it on B4 already, did Delenn bring it from B5? And [how about] the Triluminary?") In the context of an informal exchange of messages on Compuserve or the newsgroup, I wouldn't hang too much on a single word. If I decide to drive to Arizona and get a Trip-Tik from triple-A, I'm going to list my "point of origin" as Florida. That doesn't mean I was born here. That JMS said the triluminary "originated" on Epsilon 3 in the episode in a single post, does not mean that it was created there and has been there for all time.

Regards,

Joe

 

[Mike G]

Others have speculated it simply detects human DNA, and thus glowed for Delenn and other decendents of Valen because they had human DNA. It would also glow for all humans, which I belive it does (maybe? Anyone remember?)

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Good point. In either "Attonement" or In the Beginning one of the Grey Council members says they tested other Human pilots with the triluminary after they tested Sinclair and that they, too, had Minbari souls - which is how they interpreted the glow. That confirmation is what finally conviced a majority of the Council that they had to surrender.

Now given that we all share over 90% of our DNA - and given that even a fraction of Sinclair's human DNA was enough to cause a triluminary to glow for Delenn - it seems likely that they would glow for virtually all humans - because they would all be "close relatives" of Sinclair as far as it was concerned.

Regards,

Joe

 

[RW7427]

Keeping in mind that Valen (who was really Sinclair and started the whole "human/Minbari soul thing") was the originator of human DNA into the Minbari race poses a question. Wouldn't it be possible that some of Valen's descendants, who were part human and part Minbari married humans and had human children and passed that Valen/Sinclair DNA on to the pilots the Minbari tested? I know it sounds farfetched, but I wonder if it could be a possiblity.

 

[hypatia]

How would they have had contact with humans, in Valen's time? Other than Valen (maybe his mate) and his offspring, of course.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Wouldn't it be possible that some of Valen's descendants, who were part human and part Minbari married humans

In a word, "No."

1) Neither Valen nor his descedants can meaningfully be called "part Human." Reproductive biology doesn't work that way. (We humans share something like 90% of our DNA with chimpanzees, but you could never breed a human-chimp hybrid. The number of chromosomes is different, for one thing.) My guess is that Human and Minbari DNA share certain segments in common - or have segments that are analagous. When he became Valen Sinclair's entire DNA changed - except for this tiny segment. This introduced a new mutation into Minbari DNA - a variation of a native Minbari DNA sequence, not a wholly alien DNA strand. Thus Valen could mate with a Minbari female and have fertile off-spring, which certainly would not have been poissible if a substantial part of his DNA had remained Human. No Human and Minbari mating would have been fertile absent the Chrysalis machine.

2) As Valen had to be essentially 100% Minbari, so were his children. And they could not have married Humans and had off-spring, even had this been biologically possible, because the Minbari didn't encounter the Humans until the start of the War. The Humans who fought at the line could hardly have been the children of Minbari who had first encountered Humans three or four years earlier. While there is a traditon that Valen's off-spring were driven from Minbar after his death, it is clear that they later returned and were reintegrated into Minbari society. (Fans assume that there was some physical trait that set Valen's children apart, but we don't actually know that. Even if there were such a trait, it could have been some purely minor and cosmetic one, not something freakish like being "half-human". But the prejudice against them could have been based purely upon suspicion about Valen's origins - the clannish Minbari would soon have realized that he had no family, no caste or clan. Or it could have been political - they may have seen the possibility of a hereditary monarchy or priesthood and wished to avoid it by exile his immediate family from Minbar after his own (presumed) death.

It is certainly far more likely that the pilots shared a common Human ancestor with Sinclair than that they had found some convoluted way of acquiring the fragment of Sinclair's DNA that survived in Valen through some Minbari connection. There are only two Human/Minbari crosses that we know of - Valen and the mother of his children, Sheridan and Delenn. Valen is a question mark. Either his wife was pure Minbari by birth or (as I suspect) she was Catherine Sakai who underwent the Chrysalis transformation exactly as Valen had. Delenn, despite her residual bone ridge, must have been virtually 100% Human at the genetic level in order to have fertile off-spring with Sheridan. We know from the novels that David Sheridan is Human and that he has descendents, and that would not be possible otherwise. So the transformed Delenn marries a Human and has a Human child. The transformed Valen marries a Minbari (natural or artificial) and has Minbari children. There are no hybrids in the B5 universe as there are in the Trek universe, by design, just as there is no casual time travel. The couple of exceptions require unusual circumstances, great risk and extraordinary alien technology.

Regards,

Joe

 

[fisheggs]

Good call on Catherine Sakei. I always thought the triluminary was part of the Chysthallis device. I always figgured the Vorlon were involved in some way, as they were waiting with Valen as he first met the Minbari in the past. If the Triluminary originated with the Great Machine, then Sinclair would have to have taken 3 back with him as the Great Machine appeared to be an unknown to "present day" Minbari.

 

[RW7427]

Well, I knew it was far fetched. Thanks Joe.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

MY theory is that the three triluminaries, operating in tandem... uh, I mean tridem, created Epsilon Three.

 

[Alluveal]

Interesing about Catherine Sakai, though how did she get back in time to Sinclair/Valen?

 

[Alluveal]

As for traits of Valen's, it could very wel just be that certain descendents had a strong Valen-like quality to their personality (not necessarily a physical thing, more a spiritual.) That's how I always interpreted Dukat's comment about suspecting Delenn's heritage.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

1. Sinclair did take the three triluminaries back with him aboard B4, along with the Chrysalis device.

2. The Vorlons were not wating for Valen when he arrived in the 1260s. He sent out a signal on a frequency he knew the Alliance used. The Vorlons reached him before the Minbari did, and were therefore with him when the Minbari boarded. The Vorlons of that time (the two who joined Valen on B4 were Kosh and Ulkesh) knew nothing about Valen.

3. Catherine Sakai disappeared into the Rift in sector 14 not long before Sinclair returned to Babylon 5 for the mission to steal Babylon 4. The details are given in the novel To Dream in the City of Sorrows by Kathryn M. Drennan (who is married to JMS, and who wrote the S1 episode "By Any Means Necessary".)

The book explores a number of story points JMS was never able to flesh out in th series, including how and wny Marcus Cole joined the Rangers, how Sinclair spent his early months as Earth ambassador to Minbar, and how he came to become leader of the Rangers. It also deals with what happened to the relationship between Sakai and Sinclair after his sudden transfer. Without posting spoilers I woulld like to suggest that Sinclair's ultimate decision to embrace his destiny and travel into the past was motivated - or at least made easier - by the circumstances surrounding Sakai's disappearance.

JMS has said that the novel is about 90% canon. (He originallly said 100%, but later decided he didn't want to be bound by every detail in the book, which was orginally published while the series was still in production. In both the postrcipt to the novel and a comic book mini-series JMS wrote there are hints that Sinclair did, indeed, reunite with Sakai in the 13 century.

I hightly recommend the book.

4. The Chrysalis device seems to use a triluminary as a power source or a control unit, but the triluminaries are not merely or exclusively a part of it. They have other uses, as demonstrated by the fact that one or more of them was used to probe Sinclair and the other Human pilots at the Line.

Regards,

Joe

 

[Sindatur]

Joe, I've read all the books except 2 of the first 9 (The ones no one reccomends). I don't recall reading that David had children, which book was that? A Prologue in the Centauri Trilogy maybe?

 

[GKarsEye]

Others have speculated it simply detects human DNA, and thus glowed for Delenn and other decendents of Valen because they had human DNA. It would also glow for all humans, which I belive it does (maybe? Anyone remember?)[/qutoe]

This is possible but raises the question of why the Minbari would single out Sinclair for special attention and command of B5.

Fans assume that there was some physical trait that set Valen's children apart, but we don't actually know that. Even if there were such a trait, it could have been some purely minor and cosmetic one, not something freakish like being "half-human"

I sometimes imagine that this trait, if it exists, is facial hair (or any hair at all, for that matter, as most Minbari seem to lack it completely except for some men who have facial hair).


Joe's analysis of the human-Minbari transformations is correct scientifically- as Carl Sagan put it, it would be easier to mate a human with a plant than an extra terrestrial alien. The problem in B5, though, is that when Delenn is pregnant, Franklin expresses concern over her special unprecedented biological case. That, and hte bone on her head, leave some wiggle room for what Delenn might be.

Anyone remember what David Shariden look liked in the novels? (ie, bone/no-bone?)

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

David is described in the Centauri trilogy as having no head bone and looking completely Human.

Franklin's concerns about the pregnancy could be based on specific facts of Delenn's biology or on the simple fact that he doesn't know how the Chrysalis transformation works and all its implications - which nobody would. Even if dealing with a 100% Human female who had been exposed to unknown radiation or chemicals a doctor of today would probably also warn her and her mate about the dangers and uncertainties. (Boy, can you imagine how nervous Franklin would have been if Delenn has started out male as originally planned?)

There are references to Delenn's descendants out there in some canonical work, but I can't cite an authority at the moment. I'm pretty sure they're mentioned in passing in "Space, Time and the Incurable Romantic". That's a short story whose "canonicity" (if that's a word) is debatable in terms of the main plot (I think JMS wrote it as a both a "What if?" and an "Eff You!" to those who wanted Marcus to return) but I suspect the surrounding details of the future Alliance and the intervening history are true. There may also have been something in "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars" - I'll have to check the DVDs when I get around to loading them in my new DVD changer. And JMS's posts over the years may also have mentioned her and Sheridan's line continuing. (Since they had only one child, David, Delenn's line would survive only among the Humans, just as Sinclair's survived 1,000 years but only among the Minbari - until a bit of his DNA found its way into David Sheridan and returned to the Human gene pool.)

Regards,

Joe

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

I sometimes imagine that this trait, if it exists, is facial hair (or any hair at all, for that matter, as most Minbari seem to lack it completely except for some men who have facial hair).

That would make sense except that the trait doesn't seem that rare (we see at least four bearded Minbari males over the course of the series, out of maybe a two dozen total, which would be about the right proportions in most American offices.) And we have no reason to assume that all the beardless ones are incapable of growing beards. For all we know, they shave.

Besides, JMS has said that Dukhat was not a Child of Valen, so this would seem to settle the issue, even setting aside Delenn's beardlessness in the pilot. (You'd think they would have planned on using a beard as part of Mira's disguise for the pilot and S1. As it turns out, of course, it was a good thing they didn't.)

Regards,

Joe