I remember reading that one, words couldn't describe how bad it was and it put me off for a long time.. The two from that series that are worth reading are the Shadow Within and To Dream in the City of Sorrows, which are canon and tie into the main plot, plus the three canon trilogies. All of them are in a completely different league from the likes of Voices, although the middle one of the technomage trilogy and one of the Centauri trilogy (think its number 3?) are hard to find.
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B5:TLT - Show Discussion Thread (Spoilers)
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I remember reading that one, words couldn't describe how bad it was and it put me off for a long time.. The two from that series that are worth reading are the Shadow Within and To Dream in the City of Sorrows, which are canon and tie into the main plot, plus the three canon trilogies. All of them are in a completely different league from the likes of Voices, although the middle one of the technomage trilogy and one of the Centauri trilogy (think its number 3?) are hard to find.
Jade Jaguar
Regular
I see we have a few new posters here, and I want to welcome them, and their interesting view points! Because we have some new people, and it is pertinent to the discussion, I will point out that although I attended Catholic and Episcopal schools, Baptist, Methodist, and finally Presbyterian churches, and was confirmed , I am and have been for many years unequivocally atheist. Also, a "believer" in the scientific method, I might add.
I take Father Cassidy's quote, which Jan transcribed for us to mean that "scientists" are throwing the faithful a bone, in that they cannot prove that God doesn't exist, thus science does not demand that you abandon faith. But, that in effect, the advance of science made fewer and fewer believe. I found nothing in that story that implied that God was a certainty. Cassidy and Lochley do seem to accept that they are dealing with a supernatural being, perhaps a devil, and no overriding explanations are offered. But, as others have said, anyone familiar with the B5 universe, could entertain many other possible explanations. I don't think it was necessary to spell them out in the story. I did find myself wondering where Brother Theo was.
I liked both stories. They were rather different for B5. They were very sparsely presented, more like stage plays. In a way, it was like having a new B5 ep, but with the B story first, in its entirety, followed by the A story. The new CGI was great, the jump gates and the station never looked better!
Both stories posed interesting ethical/moral and logical questions to the protagonists. Lochley did just what I would have done, when she checked Simon's travels. I was skeptical of where the "demon" came from, and what its plans were if "exorcised." THus, Lochley easily answered the logical question of the demon's true motive. Although it was a ruse, Father Cassidy was posed with tough questions of what his duties were, under such unusual circumstances.
I probably liked the second story more, because of the familiar characters Sheridan and Galen. It also posed difficult questions for Sheridan, but, I thought it had more obvious plot holes. I thought it obvious that Galen was inducing Ventari's dreams, and trying to manipulate Sheridan in ways beyond the obvious. Forewarned by Galen, and therefore by Sheridan, I don't see why the ISA would have had any trouble preventing a future Ventari from destroying Earth. Further, when Sheridan tells Galen, after taking Vintari under his wing, that he will be sure (implied personally) to prevent Earth's destruction 30 years hence, even if he can't shape Vintari into a good person, when Sheridan knows he only has another ten years to live, isn't very convincing.
Also, I wouldn't have a problem with introducing "quantum space," even though we have seen the Vorlons travelling in hyperspace many times, if there was a real need. But, that didn't seem to be the case. It was just used to make a cheap joke at the reporter's expense.
So, I enjoyed them. I hope there will be more, with larger budgets, and yes, even some action to go with the philosophical questions!
I take Father Cassidy's quote, which Jan transcribed for us to mean that "scientists" are throwing the faithful a bone, in that they cannot prove that God doesn't exist, thus science does not demand that you abandon faith. But, that in effect, the advance of science made fewer and fewer believe. I found nothing in that story that implied that God was a certainty. Cassidy and Lochley do seem to accept that they are dealing with a supernatural being, perhaps a devil, and no overriding explanations are offered. But, as others have said, anyone familiar with the B5 universe, could entertain many other possible explanations. I don't think it was necessary to spell them out in the story. I did find myself wondering where Brother Theo was.
I liked both stories. They were rather different for B5. They were very sparsely presented, more like stage plays. In a way, it was like having a new B5 ep, but with the B story first, in its entirety, followed by the A story. The new CGI was great, the jump gates and the station never looked better!
Both stories posed interesting ethical/moral and logical questions to the protagonists. Lochley did just what I would have done, when she checked Simon's travels. I was skeptical of where the "demon" came from, and what its plans were if "exorcised." THus, Lochley easily answered the logical question of the demon's true motive. Although it was a ruse, Father Cassidy was posed with tough questions of what his duties were, under such unusual circumstances.
I probably liked the second story more, because of the familiar characters Sheridan and Galen. It also posed difficult questions for Sheridan, but, I thought it had more obvious plot holes. I thought it obvious that Galen was inducing Ventari's dreams, and trying to manipulate Sheridan in ways beyond the obvious. Forewarned by Galen, and therefore by Sheridan, I don't see why the ISA would have had any trouble preventing a future Ventari from destroying Earth. Further, when Sheridan tells Galen, after taking Vintari under his wing, that he will be sure (implied personally) to prevent Earth's destruction 30 years hence, even if he can't shape Vintari into a good person, when Sheridan knows he only has another ten years to live, isn't very convincing.
Also, I wouldn't have a problem with introducing "quantum space," even though we have seen the Vorlons travelling in hyperspace many times, if there was a real need. But, that didn't seem to be the case. It was just used to make a cheap joke at the reporter's expense.
So, I enjoyed them. I hope there will be more, with larger budgets, and yes, even some action to go with the philosophical questions!
Ranger1
Regular
we call them "unlucky bastards".
KoshN
Super Moderator
Oh, if I had a nickel for every time I answered this question.....
YES, some of the books are definitely worth reading. The standard answer is #7 and #9 of the original nine novels, and the three Del Rey trilogies are the ones most worth reading. The short stories are also worth reading. The novelizations were OK, and did clear up a few things for me.
Complete listing:
Of the following, #7, #9 and the recent three trilogies are very good to excellent. Those are the essentially "canon" novels. Legions of Fire Book III and The Passing of the Technomages Book II are usually hard to find, especially in new condition at a reasonable price. The short stories and comics are also hard to find. Of the original nine Del novels #1 thru #6 and #8 are, IMHO, best avoided, because they're pretty bad and non-canon. #4 and #5 are hideously bad. #7 and #9 were reprinted by Del Rey. "In the Beginning" is the best of the novelizations.
NOVELS:
Title: Book #1 Voices
Author: Vornholt, John
Timeframe: After Points of Departure & before A Race through Dark Places
Isbn1: 0-440-22057-2
Copyright1: March 1995
Publisher1: Dell
Title: Book #2 Accusations
Author: Tilton, Lois
Timeframe: After The Coming of Shadows & before All Alone in the Night.
Isbn1: 0-440-22058-0
Copyright1: May 1995
Publisher1: Dell
Title: Book #3 Blood Oath
Author: Vornholt, John
Timeframe: Historian's Note: This story takes place prior to the events in The Coming of Shadows.
Isbn1: 0-440-22059-9
Copyright1: October 1995
Publisher1: Dell
Title: Book #4 Clark's Law
Author: Mortimore, Jim
Timeframe: 11/15/2242 - 12/24/2259
Isbn1: 0-440-22229-X
Copyright1: February 1996
Publisher1: Dell
Title: Book #5 The Touch of Your Shadow, the Whisper of Your Name
Author: Barrett, Jr., Neal
Timeframe: Historian's Note: The events of this novel take place in early 2260, before A Day in the Strife.
Isbn1: 0-440-22230-3
Copyright1: April 1996
Publisher1: Dell
Title: Book #6 Betrayals
Author: Stirling, S.M.
Timeframe: Historian's Note: The year is 2259, during the Narn-Centauri War.
Isbn1: 0-440-22234-6
Copyright1: June 1996
Publisher1: Dell
Title: Book #7 The Shadow Within
Author: Cavelos, Jeanne
Timeframe: 11/2256 - 01/2257
Isbn1: 0-440-22348-2
Copyright1: April 1997
Publisher1: Dell
Isbn2: 0-345-45218-6
Copyright2: December 2002
Publisher2: DelRey
Title: Book #8 Personal Agendas
Author: Sarrantonio, Al
Timeframe: Historian's Note: The events of this novel take place in 2261, before Falling Toward Apotheosis.
Isbn1: 0-440-22351-2
Copyright1: May 1997
Publisher1: Dell
Title: Book #9 To Dream in the City of Sorrows
Author: Drennan, Kathryn M.
Timeframe Marcus in 10/2260, recalling events of 1/2259-9/2260.
Isbn1: 0-440-22354-7
Copyright1: July 1997
Publisher1: Dell
Isbn2: 0-345-45219-4
Copyright2: July 2003
Publisher2: DelRey
The recent three trilogies:
Title: Dark Genesis - The Birth of the Psi Corps
Author: Keyes, J. Gregory
Timeframe: 2115-2189
Isbn1: 0-345-42715-7
Copyright1: October 1998
Publisher1: DelRey
Title: Deadly Relations - Bester Ascendant
Author: Keyes, J. Gregory
Timeframe: 2189-2258
Isbn1: 0-345-42716-5
Copyright1: March 1999
Publisher1: DelRey
Title: Final Reckoning - The Fate of Bester
Author: Keyes, J. Gregory
Timeframe: 2271-2281
Isbn1: 0-345-42717-3
Copyright1: October 1999
Publisher1: DelRey
Title: Legions of Fire - Book I - The Long Night of Centauri Prime
Author: David, Peter
Timeframe: ~10/2262-12/2266. Dates corrected to line up with A Call to Arms and Crusade.
Isbn1: 0-345-42718-1
Copyright1: December 1999
Publisher1: DelRey
Title: Legions of Fire - Book II - Armies of Light and Dark
Author: David, Peter
Timeframe: 12/14/2266-04/18/2272. Dates corrected to line up with A Call to Arms and Crusade.
Isbn1: 0-345-42719-X
Copyright1: May 2000
Publisher1: DelRey
Title: Legions of Fire - Book III - Out of the Darkness
Author: David, Peter
Timeframe: 05/14/2273-01/21/2277. Dates corrected to line up with A Call to Arms and Crusade.
Isbn1: 0-345-42720-3
Copyright1: November 2000
Publisher1: DelRey
Title: The Passing of the Techno-Mages - Book I - Casting Shadows
Author: Cavelos, Jeanne
Timeframe: 11/2258-12/31/2258
Isbn1: 0-345-42721-1
Copyright1: March 2001
Publisher1: DelRey
Title: The Passing of the Techno-Mages - Book II - Summoning Light
Author: Cavelos, Jeanne
Timeframe: 1/2259-2/2259
Isbn1: 0-345-42722-X
Copyright1: July 2001
Publisher1: DelRey
Title: The Passing of the Techno-Mages - Book III - Invoking Darkness
Author: Cavelos, Jeanne
Timeframe: 8/2260-2261
Isbn1: 0-345-43833-7
Copyright1: December 2001
Publisher1: DelRey
NOVELIZATIONS:
Title: A Call to Arms
Author: Sheckley, Robert
Timeframe: 12/2266-01/2267
Isbn1: 0-345-43155-3
Copyright1: January 1999
Publisher1: DelRey
Title: In the Beginning
Author: David, Peter
Timeframe: Events of 2245-2248, as told by Londo in 01/2277.
Isbn1: 0-345-42452-2
Copyright1: January 1998
Publisher1: DelRey
Title: Thirdspace
Author: David, Peter
Timeframe: 6/2261
Isbn1: 0-345-42454-9
Copyright1: July 1998
Publisher1: DelRey
SHORT STORIES (all out of print, both magazines out of business):
Title: The Shadow of His Thoughts
Author: Straczynski, J. M.
Timeframe: 10/2262
Ss_pub_in: Amazing Stories
Ss_issue: Summer 1999, Number 597
Ss_commnts: The Londo Story
Title: Genius Loci
Author: Straczynski, J. M.
Timeframe: 01/2263
Ss_pub_in: Amazing Stories
Ss_issue: Winter 2000, Number 599
Ss_commnts: The Lyta / G'Kar Story
Title: Space, Time, and the Incurable Romantic
Author: Straczynski, J. M.
Timeframe: 2560-2592
Ss_pub_in: Amazing Stories
Ss_issue: Summer 2000, Number 602
Ss_commnts: The Marcus / Ivanova Story
Title: Hidden Agendas
Author: Straczynski, J. M.
Timeframe: 2262
Ss_pub_in: Babylon 5/Crusade Magazine
Ss_issue: May 2000, Number 22
Ss_commnts: The Ivanova/Warlock Destroyer/Ulkesh's Vorlon
Transport/Sheridan/Lyta Story
Title: True Seeker
Author: Avery, Fiona
Timeframe: late 2269
Ss_pub_in: Babylon 5/Crusade Magazine
Ss_issue: July 2000, Number 23
Ss_commnts: The Narn Story (carries on from episode 17 "Legacies" http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/guide/017.html )
Title: The Nautilus Coil
Author: Keyes, J. Gregory
Timeframe: 2263, or maybe even sometime in 2264
Ss_pub_in: Babylon 5/Crusade Magazine
Ss_issue: August 2000, Number 24
Ss_commnts: The Garibaldi/Lyta/Psi Corp/Vorlon story. Connects with "Dark Genesis - The Birth of the Psi Corps"
Whatever the cause of Peter David's number mistake the one thing he did get right was that the trilogy ends in the year 2278. That's the only on-screen year for when Londo and G'Kar die (check "In the Beginning") and all various the prophesies about the death of Londo and the age of David Sheridan agree with the year 2278. jms made one mistake where he mentioned 2277, but the majority of his online correspondence on this issue agrees with the year 2278.
crazyhorse
Anarchist
AnlaShokGrey
Regular
Honestly, I'd never heard that usage for duff -- decaying organic matter -- until you mentioned it. The primary definition in the dictionary I used (decaying organic matter was definition #2) says that it's a flour pudding, boiled or steamed in a cloth bag (like what the Scots call a "clootie dumpling"). And a note below that definition says that it's an alternate pronunciation that dates back to the mid-19th century, from northern England, for "dough." Here in the US, I've most commonly heard it used as a nicer term for "ass" or "butt."
I guess what I'm saying is that I wouldn't necessarily jump to the conclusion that the idiomatic phrase is comparing the gestation of life to decaying organic matter.
ETA: Whoops, completely forgot to mention that the fact of "duff" being an alternate for "dough" makes me think that the phrase "up the duff" might owe more to the idea of "a bun in the oven" for its genesis.
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Pakmaraatemycat
Member
Thanks for the replies guys. Those three trilogies in particular, sound interesting. I may well start trying to track them down once the current pile of books next to my bed gets a little lower!
A nickel is about two and a half pence at today's prices, isn't it?
Give me your Paypal details and I'll send you 3p!
A plum duff is also is a steamed pudding, popular in Scotland I believe. So I completely agree with your analysis that the etymology is closely related to having a "bun in the oven" or being "in the pudding club".
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crazyhorse
Anarchist
We call my youngest brother plum Duff
KoshN
Super Moderator
Yes, I think you're right. That means somewhere in the Centauri trilogy, we're going to need a 1 year jump. I think there is a point in the books where we have a time jump like that. Gotta re-read the books.
Lousy_Dodgers
Regular
I rather enjoyed both episodes; I understand the comments about the heavy dialogue but I do not need to see stuff getting blown up to be happy. It was just good to see a few of the characters again though I have to admit I would be happier if some of my favorites had been included in this first batch (Londo, Bester, Morden, Garibaldi, Kosh, Lennier, Vir, and Dellenn). The tribute to G'Kar at the opening was fantastic though. The tributes to Richard Biggs and Andreas Katsulas prompted me to rewatch a few of the key episodes for each character to highlight their acting abilities.
I did not really mind the religious aspects in the first episode. It is fairly open as to just who or what imprisoned that entity on Earth. If one wanted to view it as God, that interpretation is open but so is the possibility of the Vorlons, Shadows, or one of the other First Ones. I have always appreciated JMS's ability to show individuals of all faiths (or lack thereof) in a respectful light. Other sci-fi shows and films sometimes fail at this miserably.
As for the characterization of the Medieval Catholic Church, I do think you could classify it as Vorlon inspired. Why would the Vorlons necessarily spur scientific development? They focused on order and keeping the younger races in their place. They might well have considered humans unready for advancement and hence held them back scientifically. On the other hand, this view depends on a rather simplified view of the Catholic Church that ignores a great deal of historical research as well as the efforts of the church to preserve knowledge in the monasteries. That is not to say that it was by any means progressive in its outlook but certain popular perceptions of it reflect a perpetuation of propaganda from later centuries but that is another issue altogether. I just wanted to point out that the Catholic Church is not necessarily a Shadow creation...besides, a forced system of order and control does not really sound like something that the agents of chaos would want to make.
I did not read through all 11 pages so I apologize if this got addressed somewhere in the middle but I found the date for Vintari's ascension interesting in that it implies that he will have something to do with Vir's downfall. Vir will apparently only be emperor for 13 years or so by Galen's timeline. This seems well under the typical Centauri lifespan (especially for an emperor who would presumable have better medical care than the average Centauri), indicating that Vir is either forced from power, resigns, or is killed. Now, if Sheridan manages to change Vintari, might that not avert Vir's fate?
I do have to agree with the comment about Vintari...though I do understand that in a short episode, you really need to reveal his character ASAP. However, is it plausible that he would go and rant in front of Sheridan within two minutes of meeting him. I have to assume that Vintari's education included some focus on how to be diplomatic. I think the moral choice for Sheridan may have been more interesting if Vintari displayed no outward signs of what Galen talked about.
Edit: As for the whole attack on Earth, I see where Vintari might see it as the greatest threat to him for personal reaons but he seems rather short sighted (at least in what we see). By the time of the attack, the IA would be 40 years old and would most likely have a significant fighting force of its own which would not even include the Minbari's own ships. Unless Vintari launched a simulataneous attack on Minbar, he would get his butt handed to him pretty quickly.
I did not really mind the religious aspects in the first episode. It is fairly open as to just who or what imprisoned that entity on Earth. If one wanted to view it as God, that interpretation is open but so is the possibility of the Vorlons, Shadows, or one of the other First Ones. I have always appreciated JMS's ability to show individuals of all faiths (or lack thereof) in a respectful light. Other sci-fi shows and films sometimes fail at this miserably.
As for the characterization of the Medieval Catholic Church, I do think you could classify it as Vorlon inspired. Why would the Vorlons necessarily spur scientific development? They focused on order and keeping the younger races in their place. They might well have considered humans unready for advancement and hence held them back scientifically. On the other hand, this view depends on a rather simplified view of the Catholic Church that ignores a great deal of historical research as well as the efforts of the church to preserve knowledge in the monasteries. That is not to say that it was by any means progressive in its outlook but certain popular perceptions of it reflect a perpetuation of propaganda from later centuries but that is another issue altogether. I just wanted to point out that the Catholic Church is not necessarily a Shadow creation...besides, a forced system of order and control does not really sound like something that the agents of chaos would want to make.
I did not read through all 11 pages so I apologize if this got addressed somewhere in the middle but I found the date for Vintari's ascension interesting in that it implies that he will have something to do with Vir's downfall. Vir will apparently only be emperor for 13 years or so by Galen's timeline. This seems well under the typical Centauri lifespan (especially for an emperor who would presumable have better medical care than the average Centauri), indicating that Vir is either forced from power, resigns, or is killed. Now, if Sheridan manages to change Vintari, might that not avert Vir's fate?
I do have to agree with the comment about Vintari...though I do understand that in a short episode, you really need to reveal his character ASAP. However, is it plausible that he would go and rant in front of Sheridan within two minutes of meeting him. I have to assume that Vintari's education included some focus on how to be diplomatic. I think the moral choice for Sheridan may have been more interesting if Vintari displayed no outward signs of what Galen talked about.
Edit: As for the whole attack on Earth, I see where Vintari might see it as the greatest threat to him for personal reaons but he seems rather short sighted (at least in what we see). By the time of the attack, the IA would be 40 years old and would most likely have a significant fighting force of its own which would not even include the Minbari's own ships. Unless Vintari launched a simulataneous attack on Minbar, he would get his butt handed to him pretty quickly.
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I believe the logic behind how Vintari acted is that he really hasn't got out much and met aliens and chiefly that he is still very young and has much to learn. Haven't you just blurted stuff out to make small talk then over the years trained yourself to be more careful?
Jade Jaguar
Regular
Besides that, he is a royal, so few would tell him NOT to express himself as he wished. Also, Galen has been force feeding him mentally, so he is just brimming over.
darth_librarian
Regular
The Minbari could well have retreated into greater isolationism by then (30 years hence). They are, after all, a 'dying race'. Their eventual merging of souls with the human race may of had an effect.
Another point of interest, the new ISA-1 was noted as Valen class. I assumed the fly brick called Valen that we saw in LOTR was 'Valen class'. Is this a new class of the same name, or a continuation of the same class with a new design...
Another point of interest, the new ISA-1 was noted as Valen class. I assumed the fly brick called Valen that we saw in LOTR was 'Valen class'. Is this a new class of the same name, or a continuation of the same class with a new design...
vacantlook
Super Moderator
There is no proof that Minbari souls exist, let alone that Humans have been getting them. The Minbari use the triluminary to detect what they believe are souls, both in themselves and in Humans. But we know from having watched the entire show that the triluminary is a genetic device used to power the Chrysalis Device by Sinclair to become Minbari, and that he as a Minbari still had some residual human DNA just like Delenn as a human had some residual Minbari DNA. We can then understand that despite Minbari belief, the triluminary didn't scan for souls, but instead detected Human DNA.
Some Minbari in the time period of the bulk of the show might have considered their species to be decreasing in quality, but they hardly ended up as a dead race as jms has told us that the Minbari eventually achieved a First One-level of evolution, but not the Centauri or the Narn.
I don't remember them ever saying what class of ship The Valen was in LOTR. It could have just been named The Valen and its class have been something else.
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KoshN
Super Moderator
Actually, it detected Minbari DNA, Minbari DNA in a HUMAN.
Yes, the Centauri and Narn are the ones Kosh calls dying races, and that we should let them pass.
IIRC, usually the first ship of a class is given the name of that class. The Valen in B5:LotR (2265) was the first and probably only ship of that class. Perhaps, giving IA-1 the name "Valen" (in 2271) is an attempt to cast that name in a better light. They could do that if it wasn't the first ship of that class. Probably can't have two "Valen" classes.
Ranger1
Regular
how do you work that out man? when Delenn joined the council she held her hand before it and it glowed, the other members were surprised and Dukhat said that it had never happened before, thus it would have detected the minute levels of human DNA she has because she is a child of Valen
vacantlook
Super Moderator
If that is so, the how the heck did Minbari DNA get in fully-human Sinclair when he was scanned at the Battle of the Line long before his having ever come close to becoming Valen? No, it detected human DNA. When it was used to scan a Minbari, it detected remnant human DNA spread into their species from Valen, and when it was used to scan a human, it detected their human DNA.
EDIT: I see Ranger1 beat me to it while I was busy typing.
Could they have a Valen-class cruiser and a Valen-class destroyer? Heck, given what Dulann says about how obnoxious to a Minbari the Valen looks, maybe the Minbari revolted (not really, but you get the idea) and forced a redesign for what would constitute the Valen-class ships in order to fit their preferred aesthetic.
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Jan
Regular
Given that the original 'Valen' promptly got itself blown out of the sky, that seems possible.
Jan
